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IV Vitamin C

Kathryn_in_MN's picture
Kathryn_in_MN
Posts: 1258
Joined: Sep 2009

Does anyone here get IV Vit C? If so can you point me to any studies on it? I have to convince my oncologist before he will approve. He says I can take oral supplements - he ok's that, but wants more data before considering the IV C.

Thanks

PatchAdams
Posts: 272
Joined: Nov 2011
wolfen's picture
wolfen
Posts: 1252
Joined: Apr 2009

I believe that Leslie was doing the IV Vitamin C also. She mentioned going on a camping trip a couple of days ago. Perhaps she will respond when she returns.

Luv,

Wolfen

tanstaafl's picture
tanstaafl
Posts: 1086
Joined: Oct 2010

Kathryn,
IV vitamin C remains thinnish on documentation, little published (or attempted) from conventional medicine. The primary formal results, from University of Kansas with ovarian cancer, showed that IV vitamin C (with magnesium) is safe and associated with less sepsis. KUMC center is linked here. Odds are that you cannot get a "one stop shop", both conventional chemo and IV vitamin C + alternatives. Maybe at CTCA or Riordan Clinic.

The most comprehensive general IV vitamin C work is Thomas Levy's 2002 book,
Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins (Revised), although it has relative little on cancer.

http://archive.org/details/CancerAndIntravenousVitaminCWhatsNewInClinicalResearchAn
http://www.canadianmedicaljournal.ca/content/174/7/937.full
http://www.riordanclinic.org/research/articles/89023765_jom.pdf

Riordan Clinic in Kansas may be the best long distance support and inexpensive getting started with IV vitamin C if you can't get enough support to start locally.

Sometimes, mega amounts of vitamin C by itself seems to be enough to hold serious cancers (outside of mCRC) in check for a long time period. Primarily by itself IVC improves quality of life, less side effects from chemo, supresses infection and pain, and perhaps slows things down substantially. It has been recognized by most serious vitamin C doctors since the 50s that usually something else is needed too. On the natural side, alpha lipoic acid, hydroxycobalamin and/or menaquinone-4 are important adjuvant candidates. On the conventional side, vitamin C combinations seem to work well with 5FU. I've seen very little direct comment about oxaliplatin and irinotecan use with IV C, although I would expect some kind of platinum use might be common with Drisko's ovarian patients.

My wife is up over 400 infusions (1.5 - 7 per week), most 60 - 80 grams of vitamin C with all four oral adjuvants, lipoic, active B12, MK-4, and UFT (5FU prodrug). In the US, only Xeloda is available for oral use and may be more suited for enlarged masses. I have to tell you only taking everything keeps her CEA under control - steady or declining, otherwise her CEA slams into 30-40 day doubling times. Right now, her CEA is under 3 again.

Truth is, oncologists don't have much standing on nutrients at our house - little evidence of knowledge.

Kathryn_in_MN's picture
Kathryn_in_MN
Posts: 1258
Joined: Sep 2009

The only literature I have that I think my onc will look at is the U of Kansas. I wish there would be more studies. I know of two persons that use it along with chemo to help with side effects and say it has made all the difference to them. This is why I wanted to try it now, going back on chemo. My PCP says he will help me get it if my onc does not - but only if my onc is ok with it. My onc says he wants more info, so I'm trying to gather it.

peterz54's picture
peterz54
Posts: 248
Joined: Feb 2012

this 2008 article, published by National Academy of Sciences, explains some of the science behind the possible effectiness of high dose Vit C and also mentions two Phase 1 clinical trials at the end. Also, there is a list of about 20 references some of which look promissing if you can track down through Google Scholar or PubMed. References 17 & 18 pertain to two teh two phase 1 cinical trials.

Vitamin C and Cancer Revisited

Excerpt:

"Cameron and Campbell (11) reported on the response of 50 consecutive patients with advanced cancer to continuous i.v. infusions (5–45 g/d) and/or oral doses (5–20 g/d) of vitamin C. No or minimal response was observed in 27 patients; 19 patients exhibited tumor retardation, cytostasis, or regression; and 4 patients experienced tumor hemorrhage and necrosis. The first clinical study by Cameron and Pauling (12) compared survival times between 100 patients with terminal cancer treated with i.v. and oral vitamin C, usually 10 g/d, and 1,000 comparable patients not given vitamin C. Patients treated with vitamin C survived approximately four times longer than controls, with a high degree of statistical significance (P < 0.0001). A follow-up study reported that patients given vitamin C had a mean survival time almost 1 year longer than matched controls (13). Overall, 22% of vitamin C-treated patients but only 0.4% of controls survived for more than 1 year."

You might also try emailing one of the authors and asking if there is more current data he could point to.
balz.frei@oregonstate.edu

Possibly some other usefull information here
Linus Pauling Institute

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3915
Joined: Nov 2010

my experience in nutshell well you know.

2 to 3 vit c a week for 10 months. rising cea, not visible mets and good health.

each iv is 60 gramms with a few mineral supplements.

i printed my alt doc's inch of papers and copied it, took it to 3 onc's and a surgeon who was part owner of a private hospital. they dropped it in the rubbish, but i tried. that was my experience.

i was trying to get vit c as a part of our conventional system, now i gave up.

my alt doc has heaps of good cancer experience with vit c. do you want an onc who know shiite about vit c or an alternative doc with a decades experience ?

i go to both and let them practice in their strong points, where they have clinical experience and can offer me opinions of value.

i hope you get the best care and a treatment thats effective.

pm me antime. smile a bit.

save your energy for the battles, persauding doctors is like changing our friends minds here. a pointless goal. i tried, i learn about medical ego.

its best in my opinion to seek out medical advice in alignment with your core values.

you will have contradictory opinions, be warned in advance. don't get hundreds of opinions if you cannot make life and death decisions effortlessly everyday.

put a smile on your dial. my lovelly onc almost pulls out here hair when i come in, she does not ask what i am up to anymore. she asks how do i feel, i say great. and see me in another few months.

if i ask her about vit c, well i know her answer. i don't want to annoy her. if i ever need chemo, she is where i will go, but lots of alt to try before i get to that.

hugs,
Pete

Kathryn_in_MN's picture
Kathryn_in_MN
Posts: 1258
Joined: Sep 2009

Thanks Pete.

But I don't agree with "persuading doctors is like changing our friends minds here. a pointless goal."

I HAVE changed my oncologist's mind about several things - usually with the help of my colon cancer nurse navigator. I also hope I have opened the eyes of my original PCP who misdiagnosed me for 2 years, and the radiologist who read my scan incorrectly. I do not feel it is wasted energy to try to broaden the education of any medical professional. Some are open to it - in fact many are. But they do like to see studies and evidence. My oncologist said he just wanted to make sure it would not be counter-productive or hurt me in any way, so he wanted some facts to help make a decision. He did not just brush it off, but wanted to be able to make an educated decision about something he has (so far) not been educated on. He could have just said - no.

I will continue to advocate for myself and NOT consider it a waste of time to also try to share things with medical professionals. Many are open to complimentary therapies now - even though they weren't just 10 years ago. It takes time and education to change things - it doesn't happen overnight. But if none of us put in any effort, it won't happen.

veganposterchild
Posts: 2
Joined: Aug 2012

I'm glad your oncologist is open to adding alternative. i have only heard the vit C helps with side effects and cant hurt. i did some myself but for me chemo got so bad i had to quit the chemo, so I started vit C after ending chemo. My oncologist said alternative is voodoo. So I couldnt share with him what I was doing (even though that is what saved my life) but good for you to keep educating.

i have a question. How did you figure out your reports were mis-diagnosed? I can't find a way to figure this out and I feel like they may have been mis-diagnosed. What do you recommend doing to figure this out?

thanks in advance for your help

steved
Posts: 836
Joined: Apr 2004

I have had a look at the links above and had a trawl of some of the literature sources I can access and I have to say I can't find anything that would look adequate to convince a doctor who would apply the kind of level of evidence needed to consider it. Therefore unless you have a very open minded oncologist it may be difficult to convince them.

The bottom line is that a lot of the studies are case studies and good placebo controlled studies are quite often negative (as the two Mayo studies quoted in the link above found). The evidence specifically in colorectal cancer is particularly sparce. There are also basic science issues around the pharmacokinetics of IV vitamins ie what happens in the body when you take it. THese are briefly desribed here: http://www.pnas.org/content/93/8/3704.short
but basically the body becomes saturated at quite low doses (higher than RDA but well below what often people take IV) and even the immune system is saturated at 100mg levels.

I am not saying there isn't some evidence and fully support those that wish to use it as a treatment based on the current evidence especially considering the very low risks involved. But I do think that doctors are trained to apply a certain approach to looking at evidence and unless I am missing some I doubt it will be adequate to convince your oncologist.

Very happy to see more evidence and interested to hear how your onc responds. I guess that is why most people access it from other practitioners.

steve

tanstaafl's picture
tanstaafl
Posts: 1086
Joined: Oct 2010

Steve is right about how conventional medicine considers vitamin C and why most oncologists will say no. Without trying to be argumentative (except with C. Moertel, difficult and deceased), let me try to partly recouncile my, PeterZ and Steve's references.

In the 1980s Pauling was squelched by a series of papers from Mayo clinic promoted under Charles Moertel, purporting to replicate Pauling and Cameron's work in Scotland. The Mayo-Moetel trials did not accurately retest Pauling and Cameron, much less add requested data like IV vs oral blood levels. Mortel was gunning for Pauling and carefully created several public impressions biased by numerous errors, that have lasted for decades.

A series of papers associated with NIH's Mark Levine in 2002-2007 addressed a couple of these errors on IV vitamin C (Moertel completely left it out) and previously demonstrated science that reach back 50-70 years (the authors did not note this explicitly). Many doctors continue to act on greatly mistaken beliefs fostered by Moertel and similar papers of the 20th century without understanding the great treatment differences by orders of magnitude, errors and games underneath.

Levine's earlier vitamin C work in the 1990s, recommended an RDA of 200 mg (an increase from 45-90 mg recommendations) based on 12 hr "steady state" retention or "saturation" by a distinct, low capacity survival mechanism that helps delay scurvy by months. Vitamin C doses above 500 mg largely wash out in 4-6 hours. Hence, huge megavitamin C treatments are built on transient treatments like IV C treatment with high peak values or sustained, frequent oral dosing every 2 - 180 minutes with hopefully cheap vitamin C. One of the emerging points is vitamin C's additive or even synergistic use with other adjuvants.

"Vitamin C" remains clouded in politics rather than use industrial strength know how (the "family jewels" of an industrial company often profit greatly by a two, three or more decade gap between uncertain or complicated working technologies, "settled science" and competitors). Moertel et al messed up on 10 or so items and Pauling's mild C approach had severe limitations for mCRC, too.

manwithnoname
Posts: 412
Joined: Jun 2012

In 2000 my mother went into coma and was Dx with bowel cancer that had poisoned her blood, the Internet was a lot different back then but I did search @56k modem speed (hard work), the most impressive thing I found back then that might help was high dose Vit C.

Her Onc. team weren't interested, later they relented and let me give it orally.

It was no use, she had no chance.

When my son was Dx in 2006, I went back online, things were a lot easier @4mb speed, I came across a blog ridiculing Pauling and his cancer research saying he had taken huge amounts of Vit C (3 grams per day) for years and died of prostate cancer, the blog had a very authoritative air and the writer seemed to know his/her stuff.

They neglected to mention Pauling was 93 years old! his parents died at 34 and 47.

patric
Posts: 5
Joined: Mar 2012

I haven't heard any mention of this, so thought I'd jump in with a few suggestions. Iv C is hard to find and expensive...here it's $160.00 per infusion..
I have been on the vit c trail for the last few months, and have found a few excellent and cheap books. Curing the Incurable, by Thomas Levy, MD . The Cancer Breakthrough, (2007) by two British PhD researchers, who seem to know what they're talking about. They also suggest a regimen for patients and doctors. Dr Steve Hickey has a book with multitude of clinical studies to support his hypothesis, re vit c and cancer tx.
These two books discuss oral treatment with liposomal c, giving valid reasons for recommending it, over IV C.
Liposomal C is expensive, about 1$ a gram..29.95 for a box of 30 packets. My alternative doc, a DO, offers IV C, and also uses the liposomal/lypospheric in between tx. Seems that maintaining the blood level/thus the pressure on the tumor, is what makes the difference.
It a good book for anyone interested in Vit C treatment for cancer. On Amazon it's $9.00 but you might get a used one..my Levy book was used, for 3 bucks.
Check out YouTube for directions in making liposomal c.
Unfortunately our conventional oncologists have learned to see through one lens, are are committed to the "standard of care". They are trapped in a system that doesn't really allow deviation. I don't let that stop me, when I ask how successful their treatments are. That's one they really can't answer. I will continue to ask it!
Some states better than others...this is Maine, and I wish I lived in Seattle!!!!!! My home for four years and what a world of difference. I was doing prolo therapy for my knee, and my pcp asked for information, even that I would email some web sites. By the way, the prolo therapy worked like a charm.

Confucius said...Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Best of luck..Pat

luvinlife2
Posts: 172
Joined: Jul 2012

Hi Kathryn...did you check out this link from the ones I passed on to you?

http://www.pnas.org/content/102/38/13604.abstract

If you scroll down the page, there are a lot more articles on IVAA.

Just my 2 cents.... I've been doing the iv's for 2 years and I can't say enough how much this treatment has helped me while I've been on chemo. I was on chemo for 1.5 years prior to starting the iv's. I've been on the same chemo treatment for the entire time, so it's easy for me to tell that the iv's are responsible for the positive changes in my physical health.

I tolerate my chemo extremely well with little or no side effects. I do have fatigue and some hip joint deterioration but I am not anywhere close to being as tired as I was prior to the iv's. I have a pretty good life again. People can't believe I've got cancer, let alone how much chemo I've done.

As a stage IV with mets to liver and lungs, I am always on the lookout for something else that can help and I'm willing to try different things so long as my onc and nat onc say it's ok. My regular onc has been impressed with my continued good health and surprise, surprise...has actually told some of his other patients to try the iv's. He's going out on a limb because he would get his knuckles rapped if the cancer agency knew about it.

I was asked a few weeks ago if I would be willing to give my personal experiences with the iv's to some of the nursing staff in my clinic as they are going to be writing a paper about the iv's to submit to the cancer agency. Apparently myself and about a dozen or so other patients who have been doing this are exceeding expectations health-wise while on chemo.

My bag of 50g AA is also infused with Vit K which enhances the effects of the AA by 60%. I usually go twice a week, but sometimes only once. My nat onc says the effects of the iv continue to work for 72 hours.

Not all IVAA's are the same. My clinic pretty much follows protocols established in Germany. There are a lot of US clients that fly to Canada for treatments at my little clinic and they tell me that it is difficult to get IVAA's in a high enough concentration due to various state and FDA regulations. Something to do with the amount of liquid the VIT C has to be diluted in and the drip time. Maybe some of the folks who have posted here can help you with that :)

PS..IVAA's have not helped me with chemo brain!!

tanstaafl's picture
tanstaafl
Posts: 1086
Joined: Oct 2010

Thanks for sharing that, Kathy. The irinotecan report is especially important. I assume that "Vitamin K" is menadione (K3) or menadiol (K4) for water solubility, used in the 30-90 mg range, although K1 is possible. Can you tell us more specifics?

..lot of US clients that fly to Canada for treatments at my little clinic
The US FDA has made IV vitamin C harder to get by interfering with previously nationally distributed liquid ascorbate supplies, by intimidating manufacturers to stop with aggressive (abusive) claims of authority. The FDA's first strike doubled the price of ascorbate solution and probably more than halved its market, I'm not sure where things are now.

luvinlife2
Posts: 172
Joined: Jul 2012

Sorry for the delayed response. I'm not here that often and I forget a lot. Finally did remember though :)

Kathy :)

Kathryn_in_MN's picture
Kathryn_in_MN
Posts: 1258
Joined: Sep 2009

Thanks Kathy - I did already share that with my nurse navigator.

I don't think I can get anyone to agree with Vit K for me, due to my tendency to blood clots while on chemo with a port (NO past issues whatsoever, and I'm fine when I'm not on chemo and don't have a port in). I'm getting another port Monday and suspect I'll have to go back on Coumadin. This means my Vit K intake has to be very steady day to day. I am going to ask about an alternative to Coumadin (but not Lovenox shots). I'm interested in seeing if Plavix may be an option for me.

tanstaafl's picture
tanstaafl
Posts: 1086
Joined: Oct 2010

This means my Vit K intake has to be very steady day to day.
At low levels of vitamin K, this true. Since vitamin K's clotting effect is supposed to be an effect that can be saturated, the question is whether there is any important difference at higher, therapeutic levels whether 30-45-60 mg per day for the particular form of vit K is used, above "saturation". It will be important to hear if they can offer an acceptable thinner.

I am not sure whether you object to the injections, the costs or something else on Lovenox. This port discussion goes beyond my wife's experience because her only IV treatment (arms, ankles) is IV vitamin C so far, everything else is oral.

Annabelle41415's picture
Annabelle41415
Posts: 4560
Joined: Feb 2009

Has the itching gotten better or have you found out why you were. You have had so many symptoms lately and wondering if any of them have subsided which I'm hoping they have. So glad to hear about your bed too. You deserve a good rest. Praying for you.

Kim

smokeyjoe
Posts: 1428
Joined: Feb 2011

I looked up liposomal vitamin C, very interesting....how you make at home with ultrasonic jewellery cleaner. They say it makes the vitamin c very bioavailable. Thanks.

smokeyjoe
Posts: 1428
Joined: Feb 2011

Kathryn I'm on lovenox, sheesh have been for almost two years now, ever since prior to surgery. I've asked my onc. for oral blood thinners....he always says a flat out no. If you look on wiki for Plavix it states it could cause neutropenia....combined with chemo. your blood counts could get a double whammy.

Michael J
Posts: 1
Joined: Aug 2012

Dear Friends:
There is a protocol published in Pubmed by our group. Also please check Gonzalez MJ et al and Vitamin C in pubmed. There is also a book "I have cancer what should I do?", available at Amazon.com

steved
Posts: 836
Joined: Apr 2004

I am sorry but I don't think this is an appropriate site for self promotion and advertisement of your products. It may be well intended, but as a support site I am not sure simply promoting your book and protocol is appropriate.

steve

peterz54's picture
peterz54
Posts: 248
Joined: Feb 2012

I have to agree with steved at this point

I've spent several days part time going over published reports on IV vitamin C usage. I've seen the original Pauling comparison from 1976 which inidicated that Vitamin C pateints lived longer, but haven't had time to search out critiques to find out if there were flaws.

The most recent work I found was a McGill U phase I study which was done to recommend dosage for phase II, but they also observed no effect on the tumors. This cold be tdue to the study time being too short, not sure. Also, not sure if anyone ever followed the patients beyond the time they were on IV C for the study.

Am I missing something? I see anecdotal evidence on this site. I see suggestive clinical observations in the literature, but nothing at all in the way of controlled studies beyond the mCGill 2008 study. I have found a nearby clinic which will provide IV C and will address these concerns withem as well.

I have emailed the Rirdan clinic about their view of the McGill study but no response yet.

If anyone here can point to controlled studies which show longevity enhancements or tumor regession, due to IV C please post.

thanks,

peter

tanstaafl's picture
tanstaafl
Posts: 1086
Joined: Oct 2010

IV vitamin C development is primarily observational and clinical in nature under adverse conditions. The whole area was pointedly ignored or dismissed out of hand since at least the 1950s without any support for clinical tests until U Kansas, ca 2006. The 1930s if you count the Jungeblut-Sabin episode. The Mayo-Moertel trials extended this lack of investigation record to trial subversion and open attack.

It should be noted that there are several kinds of IV vitamin C solutions that have distinct physiological differences. Sodium ascorbate, pH~7.4, seems to be preferred to (highly) buffered ascorbic, pH~7, for comfort and vein preservation. Included magnesium salts are important for comfort and vein preservation. Preservatives are an important area of note and clinical impact for injectables made from commercial liquid sources, whether sulfites in older conventional ampules or other redox poising agents that maintain a lack of color and may interfere therapeutically. The dehydroxy C content, noticeable yellow to brown colors with content increased by oxygen contact and aging of pure ascrobate solutions, may be important. Dehydroxy C appears more toxic to cancer cells but has fundamental application limits for quantity.

tanstaafl's picture
tanstaafl
Posts: 1086
Joined: Oct 2010

"Our group" I believe is the Riordan Clinic in Wichita Kansas, previously known as The Center for the Improvement of Human Functioning or the Brightspot Clinic, which begat the University of Kansas trials and similar IV C protocol. These protocols more explicitly test G6PD upfront, include magnesium, and work up to full dosage over several infusions, and are the closest to a formally accepted IV vitamin C protocol developed for the general population with safety features for even the rare population segments with potential for adverse effects.

Drs Robert Cathcart and Robert Levy are other major transmitters of IV vitamin C administration technology without extras like Myer or Manner. I don't know the provenance of the German derived protocol that Kathy (LuvinLife2) mentioned earlier

lepperl's picture
lepperl
Posts: 39
Joined: Jul 2012

I did it but have tapered off. I will start again if I am ever NED to try to keep the cancer away. After being on it several months I think it is more preventative than curative. But I do feel great and some people swear by it. I am doing apatone instead but I think you already know this from the colon club. I know unfortunatly that is not an option for you. The university of Kansas department of oncology is doing a study on vitamin C right now. My integrative Dr. gave me lots of good info on it. I don't know how to forward it to youat this site but if you have an email address I can forward you the email she sent me. It has the protocol in it for the study in Kansas so if you take a copy to your Dr.you can do it without going to kansas.

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