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mistletoe injections hopkins cancer center

atlanticcanada
Posts: 74
Joined: Sep 2012

my daughter has been taking mistletoe injections for over one year , right after she was diagnosed with colon cancer  stage 4  so i was excited to read the article in the baltimore sun , believe big on mistletoe, her scans are clear so far. Has anyone else read this or is doing these.

steveandnat's picture
steveandnat
Posts: 887
Joined: Sep 2011

Never heard of this  have to  ask my onc next week.

steveandnat's picture
steveandnat
Posts: 887
Joined: Sep 2011

Never heard of this  have to  ask my onc next week.

thxmiker's picture
thxmiker
Posts: 1225
Joined: Oct 2010

I take Mistle toe extract for the last year.  I am hedging on that it works. 

 

Best Always,  mike

janderson1964's picture
janderson1964
Posts: 1619
Joined: Oct 2011

This is the first I heard of it and I am big on alternatives. Thanks for the info. I will investigate.

John23
Posts: 1832
Joined: Jan 2007

2013:

From the Baltimore Sun:

The mistletoe trial's three phases will take between five to eight years and involve patients with different kinds of cancers and ultimately cost in the millions. Diaz expects that once the trial begins, it will attract other funding. Weleda Group, the Swiss manufacturer of Iscador, is providing the extract free for the trial.

The full story is here:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-09-11/news/ph-om-believe-big-0905-20130911_1_mistletoe-iscador-alternative-cancer-treatment

___________________________________________

From 2003 – Johns Hopkins:

Ask an Expert is a free question-and-answer service about breast cancer and breast health that is available on weekends. If you'd like to ask a question or comment, please visit us again on Saturday or Sunday. In the meantime, please search the existing topics using the search tool at the top of the page. It's quite possible that one of our many existing topics already addresses your question.

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Asked

Publicly Submitted Question

04/02/2003

Do you have any information on the benefit (or lack thereof)of Iscador or Mistletoe on breast cancer treatment or prevention of recurrence? Any reason not to take it, that is, harmful effects? Thanks.

 

 

Replied

JHU's BreastCenter Reply

04/02/2003

To be frank, there is virtually nothing scientifically known about this. Which also means we don't know if it is harmful or not. When in doubt, steer clear of unknowns like this.

 

 

Please note: This service is not intended to provide primary medical advice concerning specific medical care or treatment. Ask an Expert is a free service operated by health care professionals at the Johns Hopkins Avon Foundation Breast Center. Due to the volume of questions and their complexity, there are times when medical oncologists, surgeons, radiation oncologists or oncology nurses are consulted for their input. These individuals volunteer their time for this service and will respond as soon as they are able. Please do not post or send the same question to us in multiple locations or categories.

© The Johns Hopkins University, The Johns Hopkins Hospital, and Johns Hopkins Health System, All rights reserved.

http://www.hopkinsbreastcenter.org/services/ask_expert/viewquestions.asp?id=1725

 

______________________________________________

 

Note:

 

Benefits are reported by some users of the organization that is paying for the study:

http://www.believebig.org/Blog.html?entry=mistletoe-not-just-for-the

 

The injections have not been proven to do anything as yet, and remain as an experimental alternative to standard chemical therapy and radiation.

 

And it wouldn’t be me typing this, if I didn’t include the comment that Traditional Chinese Medicine has been around for nearly four thousand years; hardly considered “experimental” by any standard.

 

My “blog” here tells my story, and the herbs I’ve researched and used are all listed on that blog.

 

My last surgeon remarked that I should continue using the herbs I had used, since it’s apparently the only reason that he found remnants of dead cancer tumors inside me.

 

“Whatever works”, he added.

 

There are many other ways to fight cancer and perhaps mistletoe injections might be another viable option; only time will tell….

 

In the meantime, anyone can buy the imported medicinal strength herbs I had used, for around 5~6 per pound.  Each pound lasts over a month and a half, and seven herbs were part of the script. Hospitalization for injections were not necessary, since the broth is simply ingested. A TCM practitioner or experienced herbalist should be available as a safety measure, but taken within the prescribed limits, there is nothing known to be unsafe regarding any of the herbs I listed.

 

If and when you’re told that your survival via standard procedures are extremely limited, why not try something that’s actually worked for someone else? How about a few billion “someone elses’”?

 

“Whatever works”.

 

Best wishes for better health to all,

 

John

 

 

manwithnoname
Posts: 393
Joined: Jun 2012

TCM isn't doing great in China.

 

"Although there are no national data on cancer incidence, the three national death cause surveys conducted in the 1970s, 1990s and 2004–05 provide us a grave picture about cancer burden in China (13). Cancer now becomes the major killer in today's China, representing 25% of all deaths in urban areas and 21% in rural areas (3). Cancer mortality in China has been increasing rapidly and continuously during the past three decades"

herdizziness's picture
herdizziness
Posts: 3402
Joined: Apr 2010

Mistletoe is widely used in the European countries, yet you don't hear they have significant if any lower cancer death rates then here.

manwithnoname
Posts: 393
Joined: Jun 2012

and thats why I never used it or TCM, no conclusive evidence, YET it still seems to help SOME people and so far I never heard of any bad side effects, unlike TCM.."Chinese medicine has caused kidney failure and even cancer"


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1254746/Chinese-medicine-caused-kidney-failure-cancer-So-safe-popular-cures.html#ixzz2f2AjfyNp 

John23
Posts: 1832
Joined: Jan 2007

 

I really love the way some individuals dole out misinformation to satisfy their need to disprove anything they do not understand.

 

The quote posted was taken from this website:

http://jjco.oxfordjournals.org/content/40/4/281.full

 

And what was neglected to be posted from that article by the poster’s wonderful information efforts, was this:

 

In the USA, a well-developed country with the increasing cancer incidence and mortality in the last tens of years and higher cancer burden than China, the total cost of cancer in 2005 was US$209.9 billion (7).

 

When one actually reads the information presented at that website, one would understand that it is the westernization of China and it’s culture that is found to be the cause of the rising rate of all maladies.

 

Children smoking at earlier age, lack of exercise and overeating of foods that are not conducive to good health practices, have all begun with the westernization of this country.

 

The one problem of basic Traditional Chinese Medicine is that it can not make symptoms disappear as fast as western medicine. If one’s quest is to work and make money, that person will not desire to wait for the cause of symptoms to be cured, they will take whatever will remove the debilitating symptom to allow the individual to continue working regardless of the underlying problem.

 

That…. Is the difference between the practice of western medicine and TCM; TCM locates the underlying problem causing the symptoms and attempts to resolve that problem. Western medicine only removes the symptoms of an underlying problem, leaving the real problem to fester and cause a worse condition later on.

 

The continued promotion of misinformation on websites and forums is counterproductive to the promotion of better health. It is industry inspired and promoted and serves only to perpetuate the production of medicines that do nothing to better one’s health.

 

The posting of the so-called “reports of the dangers of Chinese herbs” should not be taken seriously if one understands the dialog they are reading. Water is the necessity for life, but one can also drown in it. Likewise, to cite liver damage from taking an excess of anything does not equate to that substance being too toxic to take when proscribed in the proper amounts. Ingesting an aspirin can thwart a heart attack; ingesting a bottle full can cause death.

 

Common sense should always prevail in life’s venture. When it does not, you get misquotes and misinformation in the form that this misguided poster had presented.

 

Traditional Chinese Medicine is safe. It promotes the building of one’s immune system, while addressing the cause of one’s symptoms. Like any medical practice, it requires that a practitioner has the experience and knowledge to diagnose symptoms accurately, related to their science involved.

 

I was recently misdiagnosed with Pneumonia and “congestive heart failure” by three western medicine physicians. My TCM doc properly diagnosed the symptoms and resolved my problems.

 

There are good and bad in all areas of life, just as there are knowledgeable and objective thinking individuals in all walks of life. Physicians are no exception.

 

Neither are those that post to forums.

My best wishes for better health,

 

John

 

John23
Posts: 1832
Joined: Jan 2007

Data summary

All cancer rates by country - cases per 100,000 people

SOURCE: WCRF.ORG

 

Ignore

Country

Overall rate

Male rate

Female rate

 

1

Denmark

326.1

334.7

325.3

2

Ireland

317

355.9

285.1

3

Australia

314.1

360.5

274.4

4

New Zealand

309.2

337.6

287.1

5

Belgium

306.8

351.3

275.7

6

France (metropolitan)

300.4

360.6

254.9

7

USA

300.2

335

274.4

8

Norway

299.1

338.4

270.3

9

Canada

296.6

325.9

275

10

Czech Republic

295

348.8

259.1

11

Israel

288.3

303.7

280.4

12

The Netherlands

286.8

306.3

276.5

13

Luxembourg

284

324

254.4

14

Hungary

282.9

352.3

235.6

15

Iceland

282.2

305.5

265.6

16

Germany

282.1

330.7

245.7

17

Uruguay

280.3

354.4

230.7

18

Italy

274.3

310

251.6

19

French Polynesia

269.6

289.7

256.8

20

Switzerland

269.3

313.2

236

21

Slovenia

267.9

319.6

232.9

22

United Kingdom

266.9

280

260.5

23

Croatia

263.1

315

229.3

24

Republic of Korea

262.4

309.4

234.4

25

Slovakia

260.6

320.2

223.4

26

Sweden

252.1

269.6

241.2

27

Finland

249.8

271.3

239.8

28

Lithuania

244.4

316.5

207.8

29

Chinese Taipei

244.1

282.3

208.5

30

Mongolia

242.2

281.5

210.8

31

Spain

241.4

309.9

187

32

France (Martinique)

234.9

315.4

 

33

Austria

232.7

275.4

200.6

34

Estonia

230.4

285.7

203.7

35

Latvia

230.4

304

193.4

36

FYR Macedonia

225.1

262.1

196.5

37

Bulgaria

224.7

252.9

206.6

38

Portugal

223.2

266.8

190.8

39

Poland

222.9

280.5

185.5

40

Serbia

218.9

238.5

205.2

41

New Caledonia

218.5

 

208.4

42

Belarus

213.1

269

186.7

43

Malta

211.4

 

199.7

44

Barbados

207.9

251.3

189.1

45

Armenia

207.5

260.4

 

46

Argentina

206.2

 

193

47

Romania

205.1

240.6

 

48

Montenegro

204.3

 

185.2

49

Albania

202.8

 

196.6

50

South African Republic

202

254.8

 

51

Japan

 

247.3

 

52

Russian Federation

 

247.1

 

53

France (Guadeloupe)

 

245.9

 

54

France (La Reunion)

 

252.9

 

55

Puerto Rico

 

253.6

 

56

Honduras

 

 

181.6

57

Jamaica

 

 

205.1

58

Uganda

 

 

186.8

59

Singapore

 

 

 

 

Data from here:  CLICK

The fact that China's cancer rate is possibly rising quickly, does not reflect the fact that it's cancer rate per
population remains less than westernized nations.

Be well,

John

 

manwithnoname
Posts: 393
Joined: Jun 2012

"I really love the way some individuals dole out misinformation to satisfy their need to disprove anything they do not understand." LOL

You saw a post about Mistletoe and decided to try and disprove and ridicule it but at the same time 'promote' TCM!

 

The only thing you understand John is that TCM is better than everything else, you constantly berate chemo, radiation or anything not TCM, however YOU are the only person I have ever heard of that cured stage 4 cancer with TCM.

Even the TCM authority in China found no effect for stage 4 cancer!

Chinese herbs have been found full of toxic chemicals because they don't care John, plenty of evidence for that, if you read the article I posted you would also see 10 different ' Doctors' gave 10 different diagnosis and treatments, maybe that's why China is building 'western' hospitals.

Don't get me wrong, of couse there is some value in herbs but as you have admitted your self they act VERY slowly, if at all.

John23
Posts: 1832
Joined: Jan 2007

 

 

I posted:

“There are many other ways to fight cancer and perhaps mistletoe injections might be another viable option; only time will tell….

 

And you find a problem with that?

 

You have a serious problem with –me-. It’s unfortunate, and there’s not much I can do about that. But you’re foolishly omitting a very viable science, if your omitting it due to your dislike of me.

 

Do some serious research my friend. Forget the industry’s hyperbole of “nothing is as good as chemicals and money generating radiation therapy”; there are indeed other very viable ways to fight cancer.

 

Traditional Chinese Medicine has survived nearly four thousand years, and it’s helped billions upon billions of humans (and animals) survive the worst of ailments. To disregard it’s history; it’s archived benefits, is humorous at best.

 

Find your own resolve for your maladies. If/when all else fails, think again about the science you mocked so foolishly.

 

I’m sure the science and practice will still be around for you to try………

 

Best hopes,

 

John

manwithnoname
Posts: 393
Joined: Jun 2012

But you obviously went out of your way to paste a reply from JHU circa 2003! when someone reported the benefits they have had.

I will leave it upto others to see if you were posting an objective reply or not.

And TCM is not a science;

Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge"[1]) is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.

TCM,

"some of its methods, including the model of the body, or concept of disease, are not supported by modern evidence-based medicine."

 For example, depending on tongue and pulse conditions, a TCM practitioner might diagnose bleeding from the mouth and nose as: "Liver fire rushes upwards and scorches the Lung, injuring the blood vessels and giving rise to reckless pouring of blood from the mouth and nose."

sounds like woo to me...

annalexandria's picture
annalexandria
Posts: 2254
Joined: Oct 2011

John had surgery to remove his cancer (just like all of us stage 4s who have managed to survive for an extended period).

So I think his claim is not that it "cures" cancer but allegedly keeps one in remission?

If a cure is being claimed, well...hmm.

I don't think I've seen a single cure or long-term remission that didn't involve surgery, whether in the conventional or alternative realm (except for those few blood cancers that can be seemingly cured with chemo alone).

(I know, I know...spontaneous remission, guy I read about who never had surgery and got cured by eating 12 pineapples a day*, etc etc, but I mean an actual tx that has been proven to cure without surgery)

*I got an article posted to my FB wall by a friend that basically made this claim.  She sends me stuff like this about once a week. Laughing

John23
Posts: 1832
Joined: Jan 2007

 

Thanks for the support!

 

I posted this to your comment, but I’m addressing it to any/all readers……

 

You’re correct about not making any “cure” claims when it’s about cancer; to date, there is no known cure.

 

It should also be kept in mind (of the readers), that any valid “statistics” take more than ten years to validate.

 

It also takes a cancer cell between two to three years to grow large enough to be identified as “cancer”. Any efforts of individuals to devalue “old statistics” with claims that the last three to five years worth of “new advances in medicine” provides new statistics for survival, is disingenuous at best.

 

Traditional Chinese Medicine can cure other maladies, however. My Atrial Fibrillation was cured back in 2003 through the use of an herbal decoction designed to energize the liver. The liver regulates serotonin and melatonin, and it is the proper balance of both that regulates the heart rhythm. Western medicine has no “cure” for AF, only drugs (that damage the liver) and/or a surgical procedure that scores the inside of the artery to “dispel the electrical energy”. The surgery can cause eventual blood clots and/or an aneurysm at the surgical site. My neighbor died of renal failure after a few years of taking the western medicine AF medications. They took him off the heart transplant list due to a weakened  liver, and a liver transplant was not possible due to his AF and weakened heart…… (TCM is just a load of woo, or so I hear from someone with no name….)

 

 

I have met dozens of patients that have explained how their diabetes was cured via TCM; they no longer need to diet or take insulin and have not for years since their last TCM treatments to resolve it. (Just more “woo”…?)

 

My kidney stone problem was resolved via TCM herbal decoctions…. (more woo !)

 

And my problem of DVTs due to the PICC line has been totally resolved through TCM herbal treatments. My GP is still amazed…. She does not classify it as “woo” however, but amazed still to this day.

 

I would never make a claim that it’s “cured my cancer”. I’m not that foolish, and even if I were, I would be afraid to “spook” the luck I’ve had. I’m certain that I will eventually die of cancer, but between then and now, I have not had to suffer the consequences of chemicals and radiation. I do suffer the consequences of poor surgical techniques, and with only ¼ of my total intestines remaining, I’m fortunate to still be here.

 

Since taking herbal treatments to help my remaining stomach and small amount of small intestine absorb more, my blood tests have returned extremely good results. My gastro doc is as amazed as my GP that my CBC continues to indicate a better condition than their own. Not too bad for ¼ of one’s intestinal tract. There is absolutely nothing in western medicine that can provide such extraordinary results.

 

As someone without a name might say: “WOW, what a bunch of woo.”

 

TCM can do what western medicine can not do, and it may be a very good choice for anyone who finds that western medicine is failing them with their fight against cancer.

 

Oh, by the way….. Although a TCM doc may or may not be “expensive”, the herbs can be purchased for less than a fast-food meal. The herbs I used were between $5 and $15 per pound. The most expensive ones will last a few months per pound (at least), while the least expensive will last 1.5 months per pound. For under $100 per month for herbs, where’s the expense? My co-pays were more than that for useless western medications…..

 

If one wants to survive this ordeal, one has to keep an open, objective mind, and ignore the doomsayers that continually repeat the industry’s hype that only chemo and radiation will save your life.

 

If one wants “woo”, the industry will provide more than enough of it; beware of men with no name.

Best of health to all,

 

John

 

manwithnoname
Posts: 393
Joined: Jun 2012

But it's not proof of anything is it? why aren't oncologists prescribing these herbs John? 

Not just Woo...barbaric!

Some animal parts used as medicinals can be considered rather strange such as cows' gallstones.[144] Some can include the parts of endangered species, including tiger bones[145] and rhinoceros horn.[146] The black market in rhinoceros horn reduced the world's rhino population by more than 90 percent over the past 40 years.[147] Concerns have also arisen over the use of turtle plastron,[148] seahorses,[149] and the gill plates of mobula and manta rays.[150]

Since TCM recognizes bear bile as a medicinal, more than 12,000 asiatic black bears are held in "bear farms".[151] The bile is extracted through a permanent hole in the abdomen leading to the gall bladder, which can cause severe pain.[151]

Traditional Chinese Medicine also includes some human parts: the classic Materia medica (Bencao Gangmu) describes the use of 35 human body parts and excreta in medicines, including bones, fingernail, hairs, dandruff, earwax, impurities on the teeth, feces, urine, sweat.

 

sounds like something from the European dark ages that the light of the renaissance bannished. 

Yes beware of men with no name, they might shine a light as well.

 

Tony

manwithnoname
Posts: 393
Joined: Jun 2012

John on his blog says he had disease to his lungs and nodes and had no surgery for them, so he is claiming he got rid of metatastic cancer with herbs...and kept it from returning for years! a spectacular result I'm sure you would agree.. that I have never seen replicated anywhere by anyone else, and believe me I have looked.

So I would suggest it's a fluke and not the 'norm'.

Also "Atrial Fibrillation"  "kidney stone problem "  "DVT"  "Pneumonia" and “congestive heart failure”  all 'resolved'  where are the rest of us going wrong!

For full disclosure acupunture helped my shoulder once...

annalexandria's picture
annalexandria
Posts: 2254
Joined: Oct 2011

from alt therapies seem to be pretty singular.  In which case, it's impossible to say that it was the alt therapy that actually did the trick (at least from a scientific perspective).  As an individual, one can believe what one likes, I guess.

When it comes to purchasing anything from China, I would also be very concerned about contamination.  The Chinese would be the first to admit they have a huge problem with this (remember the melamine in the milk thing?), so I don't think the herbs they produce should be assumed to be pure.

manwithnoname
Posts: 393
Joined: Jun 2012

"One analysis of 2,600 samples of Chinese herbal remedies in Taiwan showed that 24% were adulterated with at least one synthetic medicine. In a series produced in the USA, the analysis showed 7% adulteration with at least one synthetic medicine. The case reports showed that two or more adulterants were present in 14 of 15 Chinese herbal medicines.

At least one death and 6 potentially life-threatening complications were found in this review. Some of the contaminants found were in the following categories of drugs: steroids, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agents, anticonvulsants, benzodiazepines, hypoglycemic agents and drugs used for treating erectile dysfunction, aminopyrine, caffeine, chlorzoxazone, clobetasol proprionate, diazepam, diclofenac, dexamethasone, ethoxybenzamide, fluoconolone acetonide, glibenclamide, hydrochlorothiazide, hydrocortisone, indomethacin, mefenamic acid, methylsalicylate, paracetamol (acetaminophen), phenacetin, phenytoin and prednisolone.

The contaminants may be responsible not only for adverse effects, but also for some of the reported benefits from Chinese herbal products."

and this doesn't even address the toxic soil and banned pesticides they are frequently grown with.

http://news.cancerconnect.com/chinese-herbal-medicines-frequently-contaminated-with-harmful-drugs/ 

atlanticcanada
Posts: 74
Joined: Sep 2012

just  s side note  mistletoe also lessens chemo side effects , and helps with a positive mood.

John23
Posts: 1832
Joined: Jan 2007
emma_s's picture
emma_s
Posts: 22
Joined: Mar 2013

 I'm currently searching for more info on this topic.

My husband's ND in Toronto plans to do mistletoe intravenuosly with aggressive doses starting first with small doses of injections, gradually increasing them and switching later to IVs.

My husband is on chemo now and I'm not sure if it makes sense to start mistletoe now or its better wait until it's finished.

I know that Pete and Ren tried it for a few months.

atlanticcanada
Posts: 74
Joined: Sep 2012

my daughter did mistletoe right away and right through chemo starting with small doses , over a year later she is on high doses ,she  did some iv mistletoe at the end of chemo. she did very well and oncologist said she could stop 3/4 of the way thru as there is no proof more is better .She also is in Toronto.

herdizziness's picture
herdizziness
Posts: 3402
Joined: Apr 2010

As of this moment, the reason you haven't heard of mistletoe injections in the states is that they are not legal in this country by the FDA.  There have been a lot of trials around in the past but they were all flawed for some reason or the other.  Here's hoping Baltimore can come up with a trial that is acceptable to the trial standards and we can see if this helps or not.  As long as it isn't hurting...

from what I understand the oral isn't anything as good as the injected (injected near tumor site) where is it supposed to do the most good.  Plus they use European mistletoe, ours in the states are too mild or something to that effect.  And remember never orally ingest mistletoe directly from the plant or via the seeds, roots or leaves in teas or such as it is poisonous.

Winter Marie

renw's picture
renw
Posts: 282
Joined: Jan 2013

Ofcourse having tried just about everything, mistletoe is no exception. U'll find info on it and my experience on my blog.

Personally I don't believe that it does anything for cancer, however it does appear to generally stimulate the immune system. After injections my blood tests would typically show an increase in certain white blood cells. 

atlanticcanada
Posts: 74
Joined: Sep 2012

i suppose that is it , if it stimulates the immune system, my daughters surgeon said it looks like immune system is kicking in ,

too bad it isnt available in U.S. yet.

coloCan
Posts: 1850
Joined: Oct 2009

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-11-mistletoe-treatment-colon-cancer.html

(Don't know if "viscum album" is the same as the "fraxini" spoken of here")

 

Fucc
Posts: 91
Joined: Sep 2012

Fraxini comes from the ash tree. Most mistletoe used is the iscador m, which us from the apple tree. The mistake tie from the ash tree is available in Europe but hard to find elsewhere, even in Canada. I tried to source it and was advised that you need special permission from the Canadian government to bring it in on a compassionate basis. It is much stronger. I gave used the iscador m since I was diagnosed. I did stop when my white blood cell count dropped from chem and I required nupogen. I am taking mistletoe again now. I can't say if it makes a difference. I now have had a recurrence. But I can say that it substantially reduced my side effects from the folfox. I felt almost normal when sing it along with chemo. 

StacyGleaso's picture
StacyGleaso
Posts: 1246
Joined: Mar 2003

To lighten the mood....

 

If a colon cancer patient is getting mistletoe injections, is the patient essentially saying cancer can kiss one's @$$?

Happy Tuesday!

 

Stacy<---called cured by her docs due to being clear from stage 4 for nearly 12 yrs.

traci43's picture
traci43
Posts: 440
Joined: Jul 2007

Too funny

smokeyjoe
Posts: 1428
Joined: Feb 2011

There is someone on this site that has used it ...... cannot recall their  name (frig)   I remember the profile pic with a white/grey horse ......  ugggh, this is gonna bug me now......  I.V. vitamin C and iscadore......    

atlanticcanada
Posts: 74
Joined: Sep 2012

I Checked out the Chris beat cancer website , there is more imformation on mistletoe

and interesting interview with ivelisse who did mistletoe for stage 4 cancer.

 

Dyanclark's picture
Dyanclark
Posts: 258
Joined: Apr 2012

Who can give these injections?

Fucc
Posts: 91
Joined: Sep 2012

They are self injected. 

atlanticcanada
Posts: 74
Joined: Sep 2012

yes these you do at home ( after a few lessons) similar to diabetic needle. 

it would be interesting to find out how many are doing these.

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