Non smoker-non drinker issue
I am very curious about this subject ''non smoker-social drinker issue''.
How come you develop mouth cancer after quiting smoking since 2005?
How long does it take for cancer to develop even if you quit smoking yrs ago?
My partner quit smoking as mentioned. She still has a drink now and then but can it cause mouth cancer as well...even after quiting smoking? We like social drinks but not excessively.
She saw 3 doctors so far and none of them mentionned alcohol. They ask about the smoking part but barely. I had to ask the questions. It was as if none of those issues mattered.
Take care, Sue
Comments
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to me
to me being a drinker was part of spending alot of time in the bar's that used to have alot of smoke. so the drinking part brought you closer to the smoke. i was neither a smoker, drinker or 55. that was almost 16 years ago. being 55 meant you spent more time in the smoke.
john0 -
Who knows the cause?
That's what makes this desease so difficult to cure. They can attribute some cancers to the environment that you've been in but not in all cases. As a smoker for 1 year way back in 1967 I doubt mine was smoke related. Sure I've been in smokey places (a bar/bowling alley or two)over the years, but not for the past 10-15 years. Drinking could be a cause, I was more of a binge drinker, might not have a beer but once or twice a week but it usually turned into a six pack BSing with friends.
We all have cancer cells in our bodies, we need to identify the trigger. There are thousands of scientists researching this beast and it's baffling that they have not found a specific (blood deficiency?)cause. They have developed treatments but not the elimination of the cause.
Scratching my head.......
Ed0 -
Non
Hi Sue,
I am also a non smoker - non drinker. Parents smoked, I tended bar part time for about 2 years but all of this was a good 15 plus years ago, yet I ended up w/ rt tonsil cancer, that went to 1 lymph node. After the tonsil was removed I asked my ent how I could have gotten this, he said if I was a smoker, drinker, combinatiom of both he would say that was the cause. He didn't say nor was I even aware to ask about HPV, so I can't say that as the root cause or that he even checked for that in the removed tonsil. All he did say was that I was in that small percentage of " we don't know", not comforting , but as someone in this post said about cancer cells I too believe we all have them , we just don't know what triggers them.
Happy Holidyas
Linda0 -
smoking and drinking and cancer
How do you know your partner only just developed cancer now, 6 years after quitting smoking? How do you know she didn't have cancer 6 years ago, but had no indication or reason to suspect it? No one goes for a periodic PET Scan and even then, it might not be detected if the mass isn't big enough. My point is, how did she know something was wrong to get tested? Can you prove that she DIDN'T have cancer 6 years ago?
Cancers can be very slow growing. My grandfather smoked for many many years. When he was in his 80's he was diagnosed and treated for rheumatoid arthritis. But an Oncologist also took at a look at him. "You don't have arthritis, you have cancer. It's lung cancer and it's metasticized everywhere throughout your body. You've probably had it for the past 20 years and never known it until you staretd feeling pain in your joints.
My case was the opposite. I felt something in my throat, went and got it checked out 2 days later and found a 5mm cyst. Had it removed 5 weeks later, but by then it had grown 600% to 3cm and was malignant. Very fast growing.
As for the alcohol - HEAVY drinkers, alcoholics are at risk for Barrett's Esophogus and other forms of mouth and throat cancers from the constant burning of the lining of their throat from all the drinking. The body changes to try and make more cells in the tissue linings and you wind up with screwy gentic code which can lead to squamous cell carcinoma of the mouth, throat, esphogus and stomach. But that's with heavy drinkers. Light social drinkers have no known related correlation.
There's also acid reflux (same reasons as the alcoholism) and HPV 16 & 18 which can be known causes of head and neck cancer.0 -
Smoking and Drinking
Smoking and drinking irrates the lining of the mouth and throat and can eventually cause changes in the cells and their DNA. Some people are more susceptable than others or everyone who smokes and drinks who have scchn which is obviously not the case. From what I have read smoking is much worse as a cause of scchn but adding alchohol to the equation makes it even worse. Quiting lowers the odds signicantly as I posted in another thread but it still takes up to 20 years to get get back to the odds of the never smoked population. Smokeless tobacco is also a problem.
I don't know if everyone has cancer in the strict sense but since cancer is caused by a change in how normal cells divide and die it certainly is possible that some people have better checks and balances than others. I personally think that an awful lot of cancers are caused by environmental factors including the foods we eat. Also, people are living a lot longer giving diseases more time to appear.0 -
55fisrpotpe said:to me
to me being a drinker was part of spending alot of time in the bar's that used to have alot of smoke. so the drinking part brought you closer to the smoke. i was neither a smoker, drinker or 55. that was almost 16 years ago. being 55 meant you spent more time in the smoke.
john
Hi John. What is 55? You were in a bar but didn't drink. Not sure I am reading well. Sorry. Sue0 -
InterestingBigfuzzydoug said:smoking and drinking and cancer
How do you know your partner only just developed cancer now, 6 years after quitting smoking? How do you know she didn't have cancer 6 years ago, but had no indication or reason to suspect it? No one goes for a periodic PET Scan and even then, it might not be detected if the mass isn't big enough. My point is, how did she know something was wrong to get tested? Can you prove that she DIDN'T have cancer 6 years ago?
Cancers can be very slow growing. My grandfather smoked for many many years. When he was in his 80's he was diagnosed and treated for rheumatoid arthritis. But an Oncologist also took at a look at him. "You don't have arthritis, you have cancer. It's lung cancer and it's metasticized everywhere throughout your body. You've probably had it for the past 20 years and never known it until you staretd feeling pain in your joints.
My case was the opposite. I felt something in my throat, went and got it checked out 2 days later and found a 5mm cyst. Had it removed 5 weeks later, but by then it had grown 600% to 3cm and was malignant. Very fast growing.
As for the alcohol - HEAVY drinkers, alcoholics are at risk for Barrett's Esophogus and other forms of mouth and throat cancers from the constant burning of the lining of their throat from all the drinking. The body changes to try and make more cells in the tissue linings and you wind up with screwy gentic code which can lead to squamous cell carcinoma of the mouth, throat, esphogus and stomach. But that's with heavy drinkers. Light social drinkers have no known related correlation.
There's also acid reflux (same reasons as the alcoholism) and HPV 16 & 18 which can be known causes of head and neck cancer.
Very interesting Bigfuzzydoug. Tks for the info.0 -
Hi SueSue22 said:All of you...
Yes it seems like a mystery on how we get cancer......unless you are a heavy smoker and heavy drinker then it would be almost clear. But when you are not???
Tks for all of your input people. Sue
Think about how many cells are in your body. These cells normally grow and divide in a controlled way to produce more cells as they are needed to keep you alive and healthy. When cells become old or damaged, they die and then they are replaced with new cells.
There are times when this all goes wrong. The genetic material (DNA) of a cell can become damaged or changed, things like smoking and alcohol, chemicals, or HPV, can produce mutations that affect normal cell growth and division. When this happens, cells do not die when they should and new cells form when the body does not need them. The extra cells may form a mass of tissue, a tumor. Not only can DNA change, and run amok in a bad way, but it can change, or mutate, in a good way. One of the Fanconi Anemia lead researchers, explained that one of the reasons, I have not had bone marrow failure yet, could be that I am a somatic mosaic. The blood part of me, the DNA may have righted itself, while the mucosa, has not. Thus my extreme high risk, and rate of HNC in FA patients. When I was diagnosed and spoke to some of the people at Rockefeller University, and Cornell, that deal with my blood disorder, FA, they told me that there are FA patients that are 20 years old, that have never smoked, or drank, and have gotten HNC. They don't even want FA patients to use mouthwash with alcohol in it.
So, exposure to something like just the alcohol in mouthwash, in some one predisposed genetically to cancer, is bad, never mind any other of the many other carcinogens there are.
If a person drank or smoked in the past, the risk of cancer, will come down with time, but I don't think it ever really goes away. In my case, I did drink some, and smoke some, but I think because of my other genetic illness, cancer was almost a given, if I didn't die of bone marrow failure first.
Cancer can be super slow growing, or the seed, (the damage from years past) can be planted, and only to take root years later and grow. My tumor got pretty darn big, pretty quickly. I found my swollen lymph node on October 9th and by December it was the size of a large lemon. 8-/ They never found my primary.
I have to say that for me, I never wonder about the 'whys' of people's cancer diagnosis. I guess I have just seen so many young people struck down with cancer, and unfortunately, not make it, I just think that cancer does what it wants in who it wants. That may not make sense, but it does in my head.
There are some people, that I do wonder, and cannot actually believe HAVE NOT gotten cancer. Like my ex. Who abuses his body with eating crap, and chewing tobacco, and seems to go through life unscathed.
Anyway, when you think about the amount of cells dividing in your body all the time, it really isn't surprising that something can go awry.0 -
Truth
Here is the dirty truth. Somewhere down the line whether that be through governmental pressures, academic, the insurance industry or a combination of them all it was decided that it was not unethical to attribute a definitive cause to virtually any disease if it served the "social good" AKA Social Engineering, AKA Propaganda. The truth is, they know the cause of few if any cancers. Their determinations are base entirely on the consensus of probability which we have recently found out was questionable at best with the NEW information that HPV could be the cause of most Head and Neck cancers. A few years ago the academic circles would have scoffed at the idea and then slandered anyone who dared to differ without mercy because smoking causes all diseases!
The amounts of money driving "studies" who's results are tailored to the desired outcome is staggering and when you trace most of it back to the source you almost always find the Insurance Industry with the purse strings setting the stage to be able to deny coverage to those who live a lifestyle that threatens their profit margin.
There are over 30 different substances that could have caused any of our cancers but if your research hospital derives part of it's income from or is owned by an Insurance Company then naturally the outcomes are going to be what the board of directors or the Federal Bureaucracy in charge of care rationing desired it to be.
Hold onto your shorts because it is going to get worse. The next big push you are going to see is already in practice for the Brits. There, their government several years ago made it legal for doctors to list a contributory factor as the cause on Death Certificates if it served the (once again) "Social Good" For example, if you die of a heart attack and you ever smoked, the doctor can list "Smoking" as the cause of death. The lawmakers were very upset that doctors there were refusing the opportunity they had given them to contribute to the "Social Good." Wait awhile, once they figure out how to nudge them into playing ball you will see it implemented here.0 -
InterestingNJR said:Truth
Here is the dirty truth. Somewhere down the line whether that be through governmental pressures, academic, the insurance industry or a combination of them all it was decided that it was not unethical to attribute a definitive cause to virtually any disease if it served the "social good" AKA Social Engineering, AKA Propaganda. The truth is, they know the cause of few if any cancers. Their determinations are base entirely on the consensus of probability which we have recently found out was questionable at best with the NEW information that HPV could be the cause of most Head and Neck cancers. A few years ago the academic circles would have scoffed at the idea and then slandered anyone who dared to differ without mercy because smoking causes all diseases!
The amounts of money driving "studies" who's results are tailored to the desired outcome is staggering and when you trace most of it back to the source you almost always find the Insurance Industry with the purse strings setting the stage to be able to deny coverage to those who live a lifestyle that threatens their profit margin.
There are over 30 different substances that could have caused any of our cancers but if your research hospital derives part of it's income from or is owned by an Insurance Company then naturally the outcomes are going to be what the board of directors or the Federal Bureaucracy in charge of care rationing desired it to be.
Hold onto your shorts because it is going to get worse. The next big push you are going to see is already in practice for the Brits. There, their government several years ago made it legal for doctors to list a contributory factor as the cause on Death Certificates if it served the (once again) "Social Good" For example, if you die of a heart attack and you ever smoked, the doctor can list "Smoking" as the cause of death. The lawmakers were very upset that doctors there were refusing the opportunity they had given them to contribute to the "Social Good." Wait awhile, once they figure out how to nudge them into playing ball you will see it implemented here.
I never smoked...though lots of second hand smoke growing up...LOTS. My dad a a heavy smoker. He started when he enlisted in WWII. He passed from a stroke at age 78...on his death cert it stated basically he died from a stroke, brought on by hypertension...caused by SMOKING. I often wondered if my dads doc wanted me to pursue someting? My dad knew smoking was a terrible habit. He had colon cancer when I was in grade school and lived with a colostomy for 30+ years...and continued to smoke. Addicted. He developed bladder cancer, chose not to treat the slow moving disease and continued to smoke. He died of a stroke, but cancer was tracking him down like it does so many.
I quit social drinking 17 years ago...I was a binge drinker in college. I also quit using Copenhagen 17 years ago. I asked my doctor point blank about the chewing tobacco and second hand smoke...she said VERY unlikely.
When I was diagnosed, HPV was being brought into the conversation more and more. That was about two years ago. At my last CT scan three weeks ago, she all but guaranteed that my cancer (SSC mets to lymphnode, unknown primary) was caused or triggered or whatever you want to call it by HPV.
Best to all here, MERRY CHRISTMAS & A HEALTHY AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR!!!!0 -
Smoking or HPVRushFan said:Interesting
I never smoked...though lots of second hand smoke growing up...LOTS. My dad a a heavy smoker. He started when he enlisted in WWII. He passed from a stroke at age 78...on his death cert it stated basically he died from a stroke, brought on by hypertension...caused by SMOKING. I often wondered if my dads doc wanted me to pursue someting? My dad knew smoking was a terrible habit. He had colon cancer when I was in grade school and lived with a colostomy for 30+ years...and continued to smoke. Addicted. He developed bladder cancer, chose not to treat the slow moving disease and continued to smoke. He died of a stroke, but cancer was tracking him down like it does so many.
I quit social drinking 17 years ago...I was a binge drinker in college. I also quit using Copenhagen 17 years ago. I asked my doctor point blank about the chewing tobacco and second hand smoke...she said VERY unlikely.
When I was diagnosed, HPV was being brought into the conversation more and more. That was about two years ago. At my last CT scan three weeks ago, she all but guaranteed that my cancer (SSC mets to lymphnode, unknown primary) was caused or triggered or whatever you want to call it by HPV.
Best to all here, MERRY CHRISTMAS & A HEALTHY AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR!!!!
It seems to me that to prove any one factor caused someones cancer is next to impossible but there is little doubt in my mind that smoking is a trigger for some forms of cancer including scchn. Unless of course there is some huge conspiracy against the tobacco industry which I also doubt. If we doubt all of the scientific data on this subject maybe we need to throw HPV under the bus as well. Also smoking and HPV are not mutually exclusive. Personally I don't care if someone smokes or not as long as they don't litter the landscape with their butts.0 -
years oldSue22 said:55
Hi John. What is 55? You were in a bar but didn't drink. Not sure I am reading well. Sorry. Sue
they told me i had to be 55 years old, a smoker and drinker to get what i had, guess i was just unlucky. I drank alot until i was 20 or so and after that hardly at all. I was 38 when I was diagnosed (1996). back then there was very little knowledge of my cancer was nothing on the internet back then.
sure wish i had this CSN site back then.
John0 -
years oldSue22 said:55
Hi John. What is 55? You were in a bar but didn't drink. Not sure I am reading well. Sorry. Sue
they told me i had to be 55 years old, a smoker and drinker to get what i had, guess i was just unlucky. I drank alot until i was 20 or so and after that hardly at all. I was 38 when I was diagnosed (1996). back then there was very little knowledge of my cancer was nothing on the internet back then.
sure wish i had this CSN site back then.
John0 -
None Smoker - My H&N Tonsils were HPV+
I believe you said it wasn't HPV derived, but not sure if that was determined through biopsy or not....
I was never a tobacco user, but have been a casual drinker for years...along with being exposed to secondary smoke, and all kinds of fumes and vapors from a fossil fuel burning power plant.
As for the other posts, I'm not really into the whole conspiracy theory assumptions.
Best,
John0 -
KTeacherKTeacher said:Timely
The new Cure magazine has an article, Connecting the dots, talking about reasons we get cancer. 2 part article, need to wait for the next edition (I still don't think that hey will have answers for us). You can go online, CURE, free.
Thank you for the tip on CURE magazine. I was a bit surprised for the author to say that except in cases of inherited genetic mutations, what caused your cancer is a question that NO ONE CAN ANSWER! ;-)
I wasn't surprised at the answer because I already knew it. What surprised me was that as a stock broker and floor trader in my life immediately preceding cancer the first thing I do is trace the source of information I receive. CURE Magazine is owned by McKesson Specialty Health which is a subsidiary of McKesson Inc, which itself is a subsidiary of none other than Humana Inc. one of the largest health care providers, insurers, and MHO's in the world.
One can call me a conspiracy theorist instead of using their own critical thinking skills if they like, but now they have to ask themselves, if this is true, then why did my doctor tell me that (fill in the cause) caused my cancer? Why did they say a couple of years ago that 75% of all our cancers were caused by smoking and now they say that 75% are actually caused by HPV? Why do all the questionnaires ask if you smoke, how much, how long ago, but they never ask about any of the other suspected causes?
Conspiracy, Agenda, Motive, call it what you will. The fact remains, they don't know what caused any of our cancers. They cannot look at any one of us and tell us what caused our cancers, yet they do. Why is that?0 -
CauseNJR said:KTeacher
Thank you for the tip on CURE magazine. I was a bit surprised for the author to say that except in cases of inherited genetic mutations, what caused your cancer is a question that NO ONE CAN ANSWER! ;-)
I wasn't surprised at the answer because I already knew it. What surprised me was that as a stock broker and floor trader in my life immediately preceding cancer the first thing I do is trace the source of information I receive. CURE Magazine is owned by McKesson Specialty Health which is a subsidiary of McKesson Inc, which itself is a subsidiary of none other than Humana Inc. one of the largest health care providers, insurers, and MHO's in the world.
One can call me a conspiracy theorist instead of using their own critical thinking skills if they like, but now they have to ask themselves, if this is true, then why did my doctor tell me that (fill in the cause) caused my cancer? Why did they say a couple of years ago that 75% of all our cancers were caused by smoking and now they say that 75% are actually caused by HPV? Why do all the questionnaires ask if you smoke, how much, how long ago, but they never ask about any of the other suspected causes?
Conspiracy, Agenda, Motive, call it what you will. The fact remains, they don't know what caused any of our cancers. They cannot look at any one of us and tell us what caused our cancers, yet they do. Why is that?
My doctors have not been able to tell me a cause for my cancer. I am a non-smoker, non-drinker and HPV-. I have asked, they don't even try to guess.0 -
Ha!KTeacher said:Cause
My doctors have not been able to tell me a cause for my cancer. I am a non-smoker, non-drinker and HPV-. I have asked, they don't even try to guess.
You didn't give them what they wanted to hang their hat on. I am a non drinker, HPV- and smoked as a teenager 30 some years ago. My first ENT doctor didn't hesitate to state my exact staging and tacked onto it, "and I am attributing it to smoking as the cause." I appreciated her candor but knew that if she was willing to do that, she wouldn't hesitate to present arbitrary information as fact down the road. I found a new ENT surgeon who said that he is certain that smoking plays a part in many diseases but they have gotten completely carried away using that as the easy answer instead of just saying they don't know.
It is easy to look at the statistics and attribute a cause knowing the odds are in your favor of being right if the numbers are. No one catches on until those number are found to be faulty.0 -
I'd personally be very careful aboutNJR said:Ha!
You didn't give them what they wanted to hang their hat on. I am a non drinker, HPV- and smoked as a teenager 30 some years ago. My first ENT doctor didn't hesitate to state my exact staging and tacked onto it, "and I am attributing it to smoking as the cause." I appreciated her candor but knew that if she was willing to do that, she wouldn't hesitate to present arbitrary information as fact down the road. I found a new ENT surgeon who said that he is certain that smoking plays a part in many diseases but they have gotten completely carried away using that as the easy answer instead of just saying they don't know.
It is easy to look at the statistics and attribute a cause knowing the odds are in your favor of being right if the numbers are. No one catches on until those number are found to be faulty.
overinterpreting the use of terms "cause" and "effect". Those terms have no practical application in this discussion. There are definitely "causal relationships" among the various factors being discussed here, but the relationships are only that--- relationships. If it were as simple as the "HPV causes throat cancer", or "smoking causes throat cancer," then everyone who smokes, or everyone exposed to HPV would have throat cancer.
Your cynical view of the world to the contrary, not everything is a conspiracy. And even if it were, none of this discussion helps any of us in dealing with our problems. I mean you no disrespect, but this is a support board. And our posts either need to help each other deal with our various cancers and the problems inherent in their treatment/follow-up, or they are better left to another outlet.
Best regards
Pat0
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