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ASTRO: Brain Metastases Common in Ovarian Cancer

gdpawel's picture
gdpawel
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[This was requested by california artist to also be posted in the uterine board]

Brain metastases commonly develop among patients with ovarian cancer, and do so rapidly in those with advanced disease, a retrospective review found.

In a study of 78 women with ovarian cancer who developed one or more brain metastases, 50% developed a single metastasis, according to Sewit Teckie, MD, and colleagues from Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York.

In addition to that group, another 19% of patients were found to have two or three metastases on initial diagnosis, 23% had four or more, and 8% already had leptomeningeal disease, Teckie told MedPage Today during a poster session at the annual meeting of the American Society for Radiation Oncology (ASTRO).

The patients were treated at the cancer center between 1983 and 2010. Their median age was 54.8 and 88% had stage III/IV disease.

The location of the metastases was the cerebral hemisphere in 56%, the cerebellum in 15%, and both in 28%.

Median overall survival was 62.3 months (95% CI 51.2 to 73.3).

The median time after diagnosis to the detection of brain metastasis was 71.1 months in patients with early-stage disease and 38.3 months when disease was diagnosed at stage III/IV.

Median follow-up for the entire cohort was eight months, and for the six patients still alive at the time of this analysis, median follow-up was 15 months.

Among all patients who developed the metastases, median subsequent survival was 8.9 months (95% CI 5.5 to 15.3), with a median survival of 14 months (95% CI 7.7 to 27.9) specifically in those who had only one metastasis.

A total of 92% of patients received whole- or partial-brain radiation therapy or stereotactic radiosurgery for their metastatic disease, while 49% had surgical treatment.

Most of those who had surgery had only one brain metastasis.

A total of 25 patients who underwent surgery also had postoperative radiation, and 15 required salvage radiation after local treatment was unsuccessful.

On multivariate analysis, these factors were associated with poor survival:

Karnofsky performance status ≥70, HR 0.35 (P=0.004)
Uncontrolled primary tumor, HR 1.81 (P=0.03)
Four or more brain metastases, HR 2.73 (P=0.002)
Leptomeningeal disease, HR 3.34 (P=0.01)

Among 33 of 39 patients for whom follow-up imaging was available, progressive or recurrent metastatic disease had occurred and 20.5% had developed leptomeningeal disease.

Six of those patients had an initial partial or complete response to radiotherapy, but two had later recurrences.

Median survival after radiation therapy for leptomeningeal disease was four months, although one patient remained alive after one year.

"More cases of leptomeningeal disease are being reported. These patients did better than patients usually do," Teckie said. "We knew leptomeningeal disease was a poor predictor, but this has not previously been analyzed statistically," she added.

In general, although brain metastases occur earlier in advanced ovarian cancer, if only one metastasis is present, stereotactic radiosurgery or surgery plus radiation therapy can provide a durable response and improve survival for some patients, she concluded.

Primary source: American Society for Radiation Oncology ASTRO 2011; Abstract 2568.

Source reference: Teckie S, et al "Predictors of survival in ovarian cancer brain metastases" ASTRO 2011; Abstract 2568.

gdpawel's picture
gdpawel
Posts: 549
Joined: May 2001

In stem cell research, anti-cancer treatments often effectively shrink the size of tumors, but some might have the opposite effect, actually expanding the small population of cancer stem cells that then are capable of metastasizing.

Using the CellSearch System technique that quantifies circulating tumor cells, scientists had shown that chemotherapy with Taxol causes a massive release of cells into the circulation, while at the same time reducing the size of the tumor, explaining that complete pathologic responses (tumor shrinkage) do not correlate well with improvements in survival.

Circulating tumor cells (CTCs) are cancer cells that have detached from solid tumors and entered the blood stream. This can begin the process of metastasis, the most life-threatening aspect of cancer. To metastasize, or spread cancer to other sites in the body, CTCs travel through the blood and can take root in another tissue or organ.

Even before the advent of the CellSearch technique, which was the "holy cow" moment about the dissemination after taxane-based chemotherapy, it had been observed in various cell-death assays, that there was an increase in the number of metabolic activity of mitochondria of the surviving cells from taxane therapy, even in cases where the majority of the cells are being killed by taxanes.

It may indeed give clincial response (tumor shrinkage), sometimes impressive, however, these are mostly short-lived and relapses after a response to taxanes are often dramatic.

Taxol actually causes cancer cell microtentacles (or extensions of the plasma membrane of cancer clles) to grow longer and allows tumor cells to reattach faster, appear to play a key role in how cancers spread to distant locations in the body.

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daisy366
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So with taxol being so ominous, what are the scientists suggesting for treatment? Are other chemos better/safer or does this cast a shadow on all chemotherapy?

This is reminiscent of other things that are originally claimed to be safe and later we are warned that the food or drug is carcinogenic.

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norma2
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Thank you for responding to Claudia's request. Having lots of information helps us all to make informed decisions about our health care. Hard to tell what is the right decision isn't it? Kind of like being a Monday morning quarterback. Except it is our lives we are talking about, not a game. I decided when diagnosed to to to what is consider one of the top cancer treatment centers in the world. I don't regret it. I did what they told me to do. Glad to report that it turned out well for me so far.

Again thanks for sharing. Your concern is appreciated.

JoAnnDK
Posts: 276
Joined: Jun 2011

What if the taxol is not used for tumor shrinkage, if the tumor has already been removed? The report above is for taxol being used for tumor shrinkage.

You know, we all do what we can do and have done, and information like this about how horrible taxol is, OVER AND OVER AGAIN...........sigh.

We are not stupid women and undertook our various treatments using the best information available from the best resources we could find. Like Norma, I decided that the Hopkins doctors, gynecological pathologists, tissue assay company........all gave me the best information that was out there. I felt very fortunate that the top hospital in the country, and also a top cancer center, was accessible for me.

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daisy366
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I re-read the info you posted - "In a study of 78 women with ovarian cancer who developed one or more brain metastases, 50% developed a single metastasis, according to Sewit Teckie, MD, and colleagues from Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York.
......In addition to that group, another 19% of patients were found to have two or three metastases on initial diagnosis, 23% had four or more, and 8% already had leptomeningeal disease"

The stats talk about the patients that developed mets but failed to mention what percentage this was of total women treated with taxol. Did I miss that? And please share what your motivation for posting this is - to inform or to scare? Inquiring minds want to know.

Mary Ann

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gdpawel
Posts: 549
Joined: May 2001

There have been a number of studies over the last fifteen years about taxane dissemination. The very first reference I found of this was a NCI observational study in 1995 that reported experience in their clinic where recurrent systemic disease occurred in all patients for which they received dose-intense Paclitaxel (Taxol) therapy. Brain metastasis was the only site of disease recurrence.

It has been stated that ovarian metastasis to the brain has been rare. Indeed, until 1994, brain metastasis was a rare complication of ovarian cancer with only 67 well-documented cases in medical literature. A multi-institutional study of 4027 ovarian cancer patients over 30 years identified only 32 cases while an autopsy study of ovarian cancer reported an incidence of 0.9%.

In the last decade, the incidence of central nervous system (CNS) metastasis has increased. The ASTRO study is one of the first to come out about the commonality of brain metastases in ovarian cancer. The word "scare" is a bit disingenuous. Perhaps not throwing caution to the wind? Should ovarian cancer patients be receiving periodic brain MRIs?

GOG's own Dr. David Alberts was quoted in a book: "There are 22 drugs that are FDA approved for ovarian cancer and it is absolute chaos, certainly in the second-line treatment of these patients, to determine what drug should be used. I can assure you that physicians are not infallible in this situation....If patients were given the opportunity to really understand what the options were, there is no question that they would want to be treated according to the best knowledge that existed for them on the basis of their tumor."

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gdpawel
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Coming Mother!!!

gdpawel's picture
gdpawel
Posts: 549
Joined: May 2001

There have been a number of studies over the last fifteen years about taxane dissemination. The very first reference I found of this was a NCI observational study in 1995 that reported experience in their clinic where recurrent systemic disease occurred in all patients for which they received dose-intense Paclitaxel (Taxol) therapy. Brain metastasis was the only site of disease recurrence.

It has been stated that ovarian metastasis to the brain has been rare. Indeed, until 1994, brain metastasis was a rare complication of ovarian cancer with only 67 well-documented cases in medical literature. A multi-institutional study of 4027 ovarian cancer patients over 30 years identified only 32 cases while an autopsy study of ovarian cancer reported an incidence of 0.9%.

In the last decade, the incidence of central nervous system (CNS) metastasis has increased. The ASTRO study is one of the first to come out about the commonality of brain metastases in ovarian cancer. The word "scare" is a bit disingenuous. Perhaps not throwing caution to the wind? Should ovarian cancer patients be receiving periodic brain MRIs?

GOG's own Dr. David Alberts was quoted in a book: "There are 22 drugs that are FDA approved for ovarian cancer and it is absolute chaos, certainly in the second-line treatment of these patients, to determine what drug should be used. I can assure you that physicians are not infallible in this situation....If patients were given the opportunity to really understand what the options were, there is no question that they would want to be treated according to the best knowledge that existed for them on the basis of their tumor."

gdpawel's picture
gdpawel
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Joined: May 2001

At times it runs like it's on its last leg, then it pulses out numerous replies. And you can't delete its mistakes. Anybody have a solution to CSN's website software mistakes?

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

You can contact them on top to see if they can delete the extra posts. Thanks for posting.

claudia

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norma2
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Every time you click on the post comment button it sends a message to post your comment. Takes time for the software to register it. Click once and wait a little while. If you keep clicking it will post that many times.

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

What you said is very true. You obviously made the correct decision for you. And I am very happy about that because I do really like you.

Also, on another note.

New information is never a criticism of what a person has or hasn't done. As I said before, I never consider that if someone is talking about chemo or radiation's benefits that they are saying I am a failure because i didn't do either. They are just talking about something that is of interest to them, and usually I'll read it, because I will most likely learn something.

About the posts/threads, one could consider it like a science newspaper and a person can choose to read those articles that are of interest to them and ignore those that they already are familiar with or no longer need to learn more about. But for the uninitiated and those new to all this, it's good to have as many things as possible to consider and talk over with their doctor. The more questions we ask our doctors, the more they become aware that we know more than they might think we do, and this might make them keep up on the latest changes in treatments more vigilantly.

I consider myself someone who reports the news. I don't make it, but if it seems relevant, I'll report on it. Take it leave it, I don't care. But at least I feel I've done my job by putting it out there. Fair enough? A reporter does not report because they think the person reading it is stupid, actually, it's just the opposite. I figure they are smart and will be happy to have new information to consider.

Hope this discussion gives someone a benefit they might not have had before they read this thread.

Not everyone will benefit.

But some might, and that is the entire point--in its entirety(sp?)

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norma2
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I have never thanked you but, I think taking my turmeric daily really has helped. I would have never known about it if wasn't for you. At least I like to think so. I read all the posts and seldom comment. I have learned a lot by joining this group.

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

You are very welcome. That means a lot to me.

I had a question for you re The Emperor of All Maladies, it's a very, very long, though equally well written book, are there some parts in particular I should pay close attention to or will I just get old reading it??? I have learned a slew of things already, I'm just saying.

Love and Kisses,

Claudia

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norma2
Posts: 486
Joined: Aug 2009

I think the author of THE EMPEROR OF ALL MALADIES is long winded. Could have used some editing. The parts that especially caught my attention where the ones describing the first chemo for leukemia patients. Giving enough chemo to kill all of the cancer cells so the cancer was reduced to zero. That made sense to me. No reseeding of cancer or stray cells that become resistant. At the end the author speculates on the causes of cancer. Also interesting.
My best to you Claudia. It is 5:45 AM here. Going to take my tumeric and go to work.

evertheoptimist
Posts: 140
Joined: Jan 2011

I am at a loss to understand the tone of a couple of replies to Greg's post.

Greg's sharing information. What other motivation would he have? What does he gain by scaring any of us?

I have always believed that what I know can save me, and what I don't know can kill me. People sharing information is always welcome, even when I disagree with the opinions or citations. On the other hand, I don't understand why some people react to information they don't like by questioning the motive of the person sharing that information or being defensive. Greg is not saying anyone of us is stupid. Meanwhile, there are those patients who unquestioningly follow whatever their doctors tell them to do, which is not always the right thing to do. So, having more information, regardless of how unsettling it maybe is, in balance, is a better thing - unless one is dealing with a quack trying to sell something. Greg is citing legitimate information - legitimate study conducted by legitimate researchers.

Please do not disincentivize people sharing information by second guessing their motives or being sarcastic or defensive because you don't like that information. Challenge if you have contrary data points, but don't dismiss with semi personal attacks and sarcasm. It lowers the quality of the discussion we have on this forum.

PS there was another post about taxol's toxicity and its role in metastasis by another poster. Between that and this by Greg, it does give me a food for thought - that is, taxol as a maintenance drug (as is the case for some patients) may not be the best idea. I am glad that some posters including Greg brought this to our attention.

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daisy366
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I'm Not interested in fighting here. and I did not intend to be sarcastic, defensive, or attacking - if you took my comments that way. I think motivation is important. I appreciate all valid information.

I still would like to know percentage of women who had mets - did I miss this???

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daisy366
Posts: 1493
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I'm Not interested in fighting here.

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

The Good. If you read the entire article, you will understand that this information is information that will help you not only tolerate Taxol better, but have it be BOTH LESS TOXIC AND MORE EFFECTIVE. I have posted this article before and for some reason, most miss that this article conveys good news for those taking Taxol.

I am trying to help you have a more favorable outcome.

We all need to get well by using whatever means works, that's works, for us as individuals. This infomration could help Taxol work better.

Because Taxol is the main chemo agent used for uterine cancer, it is good to know all one can about it.

Taxol appears to be highly effective in those cancers that are ER/PR +, but not nearly as effective for those cancers like uterine papillary serous carcinoma, which is ER/PR-.

The following article talks of how to make Taxol more effective-AND LESSEN ITS TOXICITY-- for those taking it over time usually after recurring by using turmeric (curcumin).

The study was funded by the United States Department of Defense. Co-authors include Shishir Shishodia, Ph.D.; Yasunari Takada, Ph.D.; Sanjeev Banerjee, Ph.D.; Robert A. Newman, Ph.D.; Carlos Bueso-Ramos, M.D., Ph.D.; and Janet E. Price, Ph.D.

I AM ADDING TO THIS BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE THAT THE GIST OF THE INFO WAS CLEAR SO:They are talking about taxol and breast cancer, but they are talking about taxol, which I do believe can initially be very effective in treating non pap serous endo cancers.Then they go on to discuss -TaXOL USED OVER TIME:

They say: Because Taxol is so toxic, it activates a protein that produces an inflammatory response that induces metastasis.But and here's the good news-talking about curcumin(an ingredient in easily obtainable turmeric): researchers found that the nontoxic natural substance not only repelled progression of the disease to the lungs, but also appeared to reverse the effects of paclitaxel (Taxol TM ), a commonly prescribed chemotherapy for breast cancer that may trigger spread of the disease with use over a long period of time. It mentions that curcumin lessens the toxicity of taxol by specifically breaking the dose into more manageable size, thus giving cancer less of a target to respond to negatively.Article further states:

In fact, researchers found that adding curcumin to Taxol actually enhances its effects.and this:Curcumin breaks down the dose, making the therapy less toxic and just as powerful while delivering the same level of efficacy.I had read this before in regard to the combo.Honestly, what's not to love about this news.So, all in all, I read this as very good news potentially. I am sure that other universities will be picking up on this and adding their research findings either in support or not. But basically it could potentially help those with recurrences have a far better response to Taxol.Anyone wishing further information or critique would be well advised to contact the original researchers or M.D.Anderson directly for current status, it is not my study, I'm just putting it out there.

TRULY HOPE SOME OF YOU BRING THE INFO TO THE ATTENTION OF YOUR DOCTORS. BEST WISHES TO YOU ALLTHE ABOVE EDITS WERE ADDED ON SEPT 30, 2011-since it appears that some are highly sensitive to edits.
THE ARTICLE:
Early Study Shows Spice Stunts Deadly Spread To Lungs

ScienceDaily (Oct. 16, 2005) — HOUSTON - Curcumin, the main ingredient of turmeric and the compound that gives curry its mustard-yellow color, inhibits metastasis to the lungs of mice with breast cancer, report researchers at The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center. [My comments: I do think this is worth reading. Talks of turmerics beneficial use in conjunction with Taxol. the spaces in the article were put there by me so it would be easier to see why you might be interested, everything else in the same. I thought I had posted this but didn't see it anywhere. Might be something to bring to the attention of your doctors.]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The study, to be published in the Oct. 15 issue of the journal Clinical Cancer Research, reports that the spice appears to shut down a protein active in the spread of breast cancer to a major target for metastasis.Though the study results are early, researchers found that the nontoxic natural substance not only repelled progression of the disease to the lungs, but also appeared to reverse the effects of paclitaxel (Taxol TM ), a commonly prescribed chemotherapy for breast cancer that may trigger spread of the disease with use over a long period of time. Because Taxol is so toxic, it activates a protein that produces an inflammatory response that induces metastasis. Curcumin suppresses this response, making it impossible for the cancer to spread.In fact, researchers found that adding curcumin to Taxol actually enhances its effect.Curcumin breaks down the dose, making the therapy less toxic and just as powerful while delivering the same level of efficacy."We are excited about the results of the study and the possible implications for taking the findings into the clinic in the next several years," says Bharat Aggarwal, Ph.D., professor of cancer medicine in M. D. Anderson's Department of Experimental Therapeutics. "At this time, advanced breast cancer is a difficult foe to fight with few proven treatments available after surgery, chemotherapy and radiation therapy."Taxol is currently used as the front-line chemotherapeutic agent in breast cancers, but because the drug frequently induces drug resistance after prolonged use, it is not effective in treating metastatic breast cancer, says Aggarwal.Researchers studied 60 mice with breast cancer, which were randomly assigned to one of four groups: control group, Taxol only, curcumin only and the combination of Taxol and curcumin. After the tumors grew to 10 mm (about the size of a pea), they were surgically removed, and the mice were fed a powdered curcumin diet.Macroscopic lung metastasis, or metastasis that is visible to the naked eye, was seen in 96 percent of the mice in the control group. Treatment using Taxol alone only "modestly reduced" the incidence of metastases, while the group using curcumin alone and curcumin plus Taxol "significantly reduced" both the incidence and numbers of visible lung metastases. Microscopic metastasis, or metastasis that is visible only when using a microscope, was found in the lungs of 28 percent of mice treated with the combination of curcumin and Taxol, and there was no macroscopic disease present. The micrometastases present consisted of only a few cells, suggesting that the combination inhibited the growth of breast cancer tumor cells that were in the lung before the tumors were removed. In a previous study published in the Aug. 15 issue of the journal Cancer, M. D. Anderson researchers found that when the nuclear factor-kappa B (NF-kB) (a powerful protein known to promote the inflammatory response necessary to cause breast cancer to spread) is shut down, cancer strains are unable to grow and cells are pushed to commit suicide. The mechanism in this curcumin study works the same way. Taxol activated the NF-kB in breast cancer cells, while curcumin stopped this activation by blocking the protein known as "IKK" that switched on the NF-kB, demonstrating how curcumin and Taxol work against one another. Taxol produced the inflammatory response, triggering metastasis, and curcumin suppressed it, causing cell death. Extracted from the roots of the curcuma longa plant, curcumin is a member of the ginger family. While it is not used in conventional medicine, it is widely prescribed in Indian medicine as a potent remedy for liver disorders, rheumatism, diabetic wounds, runny nose, cough and sinusitis. Traditional Chinese medicine uses curcumin as a treatment for diseases associated with abdominal pain, and it is used in ancient Hindu medicine as a treatment for sprains and swelling. According to the American Cancer Society, the chance of a woman having invasive breast cancer sometime during her life is one in eight. About 211,240 women in the United States will be diagnosed with invasive breast cancer in 2005, and approximately 40,410 women will die from the disease this year.###The study was funded by the United States Department of Defense. Co-authors include Shishir Shishodia, Ph.D.; Yasunari Takada, Ph.D.; Sanjeev Banerjee, Ph.D.; Robert A. Newman, Ph.D.; Carlos Bueso-Ramos, M.D., Ph.D.; and Janet E.

Price, Ph.D.

So, there's that.

jazzy1's picture
jazzy1
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mar 2010

FYI Greg's wife I think is or was an ovarian cancer patient. He has learned much from the years of being her caregiver. I had posted something on another part of this site and we exchanged emails as to how I know about him.

I just learn to take information and read it and if it's beneficial take it in and if not delete it and go on. Not everything we read is relevant to our particular case.

Hugs,
Jan

daisy366's picture
daisy366
Posts: 1493
Joined: Mar 2009

I have discussed brain mets with my doc and getting scan of brain. He replied that unless a person has lung mets, they would not have brain mets. How true is that?

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

I couldn't agree more. Take it or leave it, it's nice when there is an "it" to consider or choose not to consider.

Kisses,

claudia

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gdpawel
Posts: 549
Joined: May 2001

The relationship of cancer and inflammation is very interesting. Inflammation is present before and during the life of a cancer. In cancer, inflammation is a pathological process characterized by injury or destruction of tissues caused by a variety of cellular (cancer) and chemical (chemotherapy) reactions. It is usually manifested by typical signs of pain, heat, redness, swelling, and loss of function. Inflammation can be caused by bacterial, viral, or carcinomic means.

Taxol has a cancer-promoting risk. It increases fivefold the production of Interleukin - 8 (IL-8), a cellular communication molecule that initiates the growth of new blood vessels to feed a growing cancer. IL-8 is under the control of an inflammatory regulating protein called nuclear factor-kappa Beta (NF-kB). When NF-kB is enhanced, it increases the production of IL-8, and thus Taxol fails to stop the growth of new blood vessels that feed a growing cancer, failing to prevent recurrence.

Taxol is but one of a group of drugs that has this unwanted side-effect of activating NF-kB. Other drugs in this group include Doxorubicin, 5-Fluorouracil, Cisplatin, VP-16 (Etoposide), ARA-C, and Methotrexate. Patients with high inflammatory markers during chemotherapy are at higher risk for recurrence, and thus need to more closely monitor and modulate their NF-kB expression after the chemotherapy ends.

The ASTRO study has pointed out the increase incidence of ovarian brain metastases, not the underlying causes. While cell function analysis has observed an increase in the number of metabolic activity of mitochondria of the surviving cells from taxane therapy, even in cases where the majority of the cells are being killed by taxanes, Taxol actually causes cancer cell microtentacles (or extensions of the plasma membrane of cancer cells) to grow longer and allows tumor cells to reattach faster, appearing to paly a key role in how cancers spread to distant locations in the body.

In stem cell research, anti-cancer treatments often effectively shrink the size of tumors, but some might have the opposite effect, actually expanding the small population of cancer stem cells that then are capable of metastasizing.

These circulating cells would explain the lack of overall survival advantage for partially successful treatment. If anything, I would guess that the surviving cells would be more disregulated and therefore tougher and more aggressive, and perhaps, since they no longer have to compete with the less aggressive and easier to kill cells for nutrients or “lebensraum,” all of the now even more rapidly expanding clone of tough-guy cells would be more likely to invade, metastasize, and generally wreak havoc.

This might also explain the higher rates of metabolism among the remaining cells, along with the fact that these cells might be working feverishly to repair damage done by the chemotherapy drugs – especially taxanes, in which the putative mechanism is to lock in place the mitotic spindle and thereby prevent cell division.

RoseyR
Posts: 464
Joined: Feb 2011

Thanks for your information.

In Natural Strategies for Cancer Patients, Dr. Russell Blaylock likewise warns that if a first series of chemotherapy treatments doesn't "knock out" the cancer cells (as opposed to merely a tumor), the cells that survive gain strength and become doubly aggressive, making it ever harder for subsequent chemo to gain a lasting remission.

He laments the lack of studies that show what happens when a really healthy diet is the ONLY follow-up treatment, following debulking surgery, rather than chemo or radiation. As his specialty is neurosurgery, he is especially good on what substances tend to promote brain metastasis, by the way. Even glutamate--helpful in some circumstances--he warns may exacerbate the presence of any developing brain tumor. On the subject of taxol per se, he is duly cautionary, while advising several supplements that he believes mitigate many of its horrific effects; indeed, he advises his own patients NOT to proceed with chemo "on schedule," but to take a few weeks first to fortify their systems with vitamins and supplements that, his research shows, can protect the body against taxol's assaults.

I am especially interested in the "inflammatory markers" that you noted to be significant during the course of chemo in intimating likelihood of recurrence. The blood tests my "top cancer cancer" routinely ordered measured very little (least of all my vitamin B12, or D, or zinc levels, all important to health status!) and not even my fibrogen levels. The only inflammatory marker I was aware of was CRP--and because Dr. Keith Block considers this an impportant marker, I kept an eye on it during chemo; it was always less than .01--which is where Block wanted to see it.

On the other hand, I believe CRP is more descriptive of propensity for heart conditions than general inflammation--and with a major checkup due in two weeks, wonder what other "markers" I should ask my "major treatment center" to check.

Final postscript: Even my FERRITIN levels were never checked for nine months!!! But because my hemoglobin was very low, I was blithely told my the chemo nurse to "have a juicy burger or steak" and even "to start taking slow-release IRON.

Only a test my by INTERNIST, demanded by me, revealed that though hemoglobin was low, it was NOT because of low iron; in fact, my iron was way too HIGH, never a good marker for cancer patients. (It's probably high because I had two blood transfusions but they were too careless to check my ferritin levels afterwards.) Had I followed the nurse's advice, I'd be in even worse shape. The only way to get the iron levels down, from what I've read, are to donate blood once a week for a few months or to chelate it out ... and avoid iron-rich foods.

So thank you for your posts, whether they bring good or bad news--and please let us know what marker of inflammation we should be tested for.

Appreciatively,
Rosey R

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

Hey, so, I've been wanting to give blood for the purpose of reducing both iron, copper and random cancer cell burden, but was told because I had cancer, I could not donate blood. Do you have a way to donate that might help me on this score. There are iron binding foods that could help lessen your iron levels. Tea will bind with iron rich foods if you take it at the same time you are eating that food. I assume you do not eat meat.

I've read that both cilantro and apples act as chelation agents.

Anyone have any thoughts on why taxol is not given at a reduced rate with shorter intervals inbetween?

RoseyR
Posts: 464
Joined: Feb 2011

Claudia,

Sorry I overlooked your question. There are at least two ways to get rid of blood; one is to "donate" it which we obviously can't do soon after a cancer diagnosis.

But there are actually protocols (I forget their names) for getting RID of small amounts of blood by draining about eight ounces of it as often as twice a week but more usually once a month. Your internist (and obviously a hematologist) can discuss these options with you.

I found some information about this online by Googling "iron overload disorders" or "what can I do about high ferritin levels"?

You'll see the outpatient procedures described in some articles there; it's very simply; instead of using an IV to receive blood, you're hooked up to GIVE it. The procedure is often used in patients who have a genetic prospensity for iron overload in diseases such as hemachromatosis (am sure I've mangled the spelling here as I hardly recall the exact term).

Bottom line: With a doctor's sanction, you CAN get rid of small amounts of blood to reduce your iron overload. The only exception is if your hemoglobin level is too low; they prefer it to be at least 12.

Love,
Rosey

RoseyR
Posts: 464
Joined: Feb 2011

Claudia,

Sorry I overlooked your question. There are at least two ways to get rid of blood; one is to "donate" it which we obviously can't do soon after a cancer diagnosis.

But there are actually protocols (I forget their names) for getting RID of small amounts of blood by draining about eight ounces of it as often as twice a week but more usually once a month. Your internist (and obviously a hematologist) can discuss these options with you.

I found some information about this online by Googling "iron overload disorders" or "what can I do about high ferritin levels"?

You'll see the outpatient procedures described in some articles there; it's very simple; instead of using an IV to receive blood, you're hooked up to GIVE it. The procedure is often used in patients who have a genetic prospensity for iron overload in diseases such as hemachromatosis (am sure I've mangled the spelling here as I hardly recall the exact term).

Bottom line: With a doctor's sanction, you CAN get rid of small amounts of blood to reduce your iron overload. The only exception is if your hemoglobin level is too low; they prefer it to be at least 12.

Love,
Rosey

evertheoptimist
Posts: 140
Joined: Jan 2011

IP inositol binds with iron and gets rid of it. you can google it and buy on line.

Meanwhile, regarding the power of nutrition. I am all for it. I am practicing it. If not anything else, it keeps my body healthy and that's very important if I am to deal with my condition as a chronic health issue - very likely due to the fact that my condition is deemed not curable - but hopefully manageable.

That said, I am skeptical that the nnutritional change alone can keep the cancer at bay. I ate inhumanly healthy through the initial treatment this year and during my very short lived remission (3-4 months). I consumed close to 20 servings of vegetables. Need I say more? Trust me only a masochist could have eaten the way I did, and I have a very high threshold for food not tasting good, and discipline for doing every thing right. Thought it's a case of only one subject (me), my experience made it very clear to me that as far as "I" am concerned, healthy nutrition is NOT going to be enough to keep cancer at bay.

I do intend to maintain very healthy eating habit still since there are tons of general benefit for good health.

PS. I took all sorts of supplements (like curcumin, etc. all the good stuff everybody talks about).

soromer
Posts: 130
Joined: Mar 2011

Where else are you getting your information?

I feel desperately, criminally ignorant all of a sudden. I'm not trying to shoot the messenger, believe me, merely trying to express my dismay at being so far behind the curve.

Thanks, RoseyR, for whatever else you want to share.

soromer
Posts: 130
Joined: Mar 2011

Thanks, Greg, for posting this information. But it is painful for me to read this information, at this stage of my treatment/recovery. At the risk of being censored, my first response is WTF?!?!

I was considering myself fortunate earlier that I did not have Taxol as my first-line therapy. Instead, I had doxorubicin and cisplatin. The combo did not work for me at all; I experienced no remission whatsoever. I now have 5 lung nodules instead of one (immediate post-surgery). My oncologist calls this "persistent" Stage III adenocarcinoma. Even if it's not Stage IV, it still could kill me.

And now I read this in your comment:
"Taxol is but one of a group of drugs that has this unwanted side-effect of activating NF-kB. Other drugs in this group include Doxorubicin, 5-Fluorouracil, Cisplatin, VP-16 (Etoposide), ARA-C, and Methotrexate. Patients with high inflammatory markers during chemotherapy are at higher risk for recurrence, and thus need to more closely monitor and modulate their NF-kB expression after the chemotherapy ends."

NO ONE has said BOO to me about this possibility, nor about any need to monitor my NF-kB expression. Damn. Damn it all.

I have been trying my damndest all along to catch up, to bring myself up to speed about what I need to do to save my life--and now it seems that the very drugs I was relying upon were not only useless but harmful!?!?!

I am working so hard now to improve my diet. To detoxify. To boost my immune function. I exercise; I meditate; I do yoga, T'ai Chi and Qi Gong; I spend time outside every day. I keep thinking there must be an approachable limit to remedies that I can take and interventions that I can implement. But no.

Sorry to rant. But I am very, very angry. And again, I feel helpless, at a loss for whom or what to trust.

JoAnnDK
Posts: 276
Joined: Jun 2011

I did a little research of my own and found that this paragraph

"Taxol is but one of a group of drugs that has this unwanted side-effect of activating NF-kB. Other drugs in this group include Doxorubicin, 5-Fluorouracil, Cisplatin, VP-16 (Etoposide), ARA-C, and Methotrexate. Patients with high inflammatory markers during chemotherapy are at higher risk for recurrence, and thus need to more closely monitor and modulate their NF-kB expression after the chemotherapy ends."

is cited over and over and over again, authored by one doctor, James Arond-Thomas, who is or was apparently the "#1 cancer coach". Many of the links included with this article are dead and lead nowhere. I googled this doctor and found that he has a practice in Nebraska. So he is an MD but apparently the theory postulated above is his alone.

So Soromer, I do not think you or anyone else should be doubting herself over the decisions we have made. As I said before, we have ALL done the best we could do, under the most difficult of circumstances, and certainly do not need to be repeatedly told that we made wrong decisions. This causes unneeded stress which, as we all know, is bad for us.

soromer
Posts: 130
Joined: Mar 2011

And I think I'll be doing some of my own as well. It's quite possible that there is no other authoritative source than this, or any discussion about this particular topic.

It is SO HARD to find our way through this maze. I had no idea how frustrating it would be.

In any case, what continues to exasperate me about the whole situation is the relative lack of communication that I appear to be able to have with my oncologist about it all. I asked, for example, about a different way to infuse the doxorubicin to mitigate the risk of harmful cardiac effects. Her response was basically, "So?"

That kind of infantilization is stressful to me. I don't know any way to avoid it, other than finding a doctor who doesn't behave that way. Suggestions are welcome.

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

Certainly no one would think you are stupid and I don't feel you should feel anything but woefully uninformed due to no fault of your own.

Which is exactly the point of all this. Yes it is both a blessing and seemingly a curse, but the fact that you have things to think about is at least being informed. One of the things that bothered me the most was that I feel and it might be true of most here, that the totality of informed consent is lacking. There is a basic glossing over the whole truth. Warnings of some things, but certainly not most. That's why when I asked what kind of a success recored my gyno/onc had using the treatments he recommended and he was reply was that he didn't keep records, I was, to say the very least incredulous. What??? No records?? and he was in one of those cancer community hospitals, I can't think of the name off hand. If he didn't know how well it worked, why would he continue to do it without a firm concept of it effectiveness???

Anyway, I don't really know where you are in your knowledge curve so here are some very basic things one should know about cancer:

These are some of the tings that cancer just adores you for supplying it:

sugar/carbs of any kind--i.e. brown rice is a wonderful food but not for a stage four cancer patient.

Milk helps cancer

Cancer needs iron, copper

It prefers an anerobic environment

a low body temp

Cancer hates these things:

potassium

Anything alkaline-check acid alkaline charts as it's the ash the body makes which counts. Lemon is highly ALKALINE FORMING

oxygen- so exercise, but not too strenuously as it also likes lactic acid/Practice deep breathing throughout the day.

heat-check your basic temperature

It has a problem with the trio of turmeric/pepper/olive oil taken together

Green tea, brewed for thirty minutes, and then drunk within the hour, a must as the goodness gets lost after that-- and then no sugar or milk, but lemon ups its effectiveness.

If you want to keep the bad estrogen under control-cabbage cooked for just a minute or two or steamed, changes the bad estrogen into a more innocuous form. Also, it is important to keep everything going out of your body as quickly as possible as if estrogen does not get expelled it is reabsorbed and changed into the bad cancer causing form of estrogen by the liver.

Anyone else want to fill in what I've left out for the basics.

Oh, there is a list of antiangeogenetic foods in the dietary thread.

If you are really a stage four, which my understanding was that one became when the cancer left the abdominal cavity, so lung mets, would be pretty bad. In which case I would, were it me, start growing wheatgrass. There is a ton of info on the net re wheatgrass, which is alkaline as well as a source of chlorophyl which is akin to the red blood cell.

If you send me an csn email I will give you my email address.

There are quite a few of us out here doing things in addition to chemo and radiation. Rosey, Maggie, Culka, although she may not feel like being active right now, her posts are great, Tethys, ever I think. You might start a post asking for help with the basics, standard alternative complementary, whatever.

In your benefit, it seems you have some of the most important traits to getting through this, curiosity and an open mind. Believe if you try hard enough and never give up you will make it, and I believe you will. I would not eat any kind of animal or fish until I had some sign that my cancer was no longer growing.

This is what it says at the bottom of this page and is why I feel comfortable saying what I have.

The content on this site is for informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for professional medical advice. Do not use this information to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease without consulting with a qualified healthcare provider. Please consult your healthcare provider with any questions or concerns you may have regarding your condition. Use of this online service is subject to the disclaimer and the terms and conditions.

The very, very best of good wishes for you,

Claudia

Wait-----Stress, cancer likes stress because when your body and mind are stressed all your immune activity slows and goes to dealing with the stress. In the beginning, when I was first diagnosed, if someone's behavior was stressful to me, I would say that because of the cancer, I absolutely could not tolerate any stress and unfortunatly, they would have to go change the conversation or go home.You have not only the right to, but have an obligation to protect yourself. I'll write you a note if you would like.

Hugs

soromer
Posts: 130
Joined: Mar 2011

for the overview.

All of these basics I pretty much have down, though potassium is new to me, and I am a bit confused, regularly, about how we should avoid sugars on the one hand and consume berries and other anti-oxidant fruit on the other. I've been avoiding soy products and phytoestrogens alike; the jury appears to be out on whether it's good to eat them or not.

For a while, I was eating a lot of animal protein, though that changed about 4 weeks ago when I went completely vegan. And in a couple of weeks, I'm heading to a retreat center for a 5-day raw food detox program (which includes LOTS of wheatgrass, too).

I love my Ayurvedic healer, and I am very fond of my acupuncturist, both of whom are very competent and reassuring practitioners. I may still seek a primary care doctor who has a cross-expertise in another paradigm (either anthroposophical or Traditional Chinese), but that decision is still a couple weeks away. I have one appointment/interview set for 11/3, the week before I head into the detox.

Strictly speaking, I have a "persistent" Stage IIIC2 endometrial cancer since it did not respond to the first-line treatment. I hope that the hormonal therapy--and everything else that I am doing!--will be effective.

I feel and look radiantly healthy, which is no small thing. A year ago, I was miserable--exhausted, bleeding, and anxious. None of those is true now.

I'll send you a PM.

culka's picture
culka
Posts: 158
Joined: Oct 2009

never mind

Gracegoi's picture
Gracegoi
Posts: 59
Joined: Aug 2011

Its okay to rant.
Any questions I had about what I was learning on this site I took to my Oncologist. I would feel the same way if I were in your situation. I felt the same way after I found out what my diagnosis was. What do you think about making an appointment and asking one more time if there is anything else for you to try along with questions from this site. Good for you to seek out what the doctors cannot recommend and make changes to try to help yourself.

You are doing more than I right now . I have gotten complacent.

Cancer and its treatment is not a one size fits all. That's for certain.

Cyber hug for you.

GD, I have seen you post here ever so often. I was always touched that a man would post research on our site.

Thank you for caring.
Grace

gdpawel's picture
gdpawel
Posts: 549
Joined: May 2001

A report in the journal International Cancer Research stated that taxane drugs target part of the cell cytoskeleton called the tubulin. Tubulin is used to build microtubules, which in turn make up the cell's structure. Destroying it kills the cell, but cancer cells eventually evolve mechanisms to pump out the drugs that do this (resistance). Resistance to anti-tubulin therapies, like Taxol, is a huge problem in many cancers. Like I stated above (and the CSN website software program stated it 23 times), should ovarian cancer patients be receiving periodic brain MRIs?

JoAnnDK
Posts: 276
Joined: Jun 2011

"Anyone have any thoughts on why taxol is not given at a reduced rate with shorter intervals in between?"
=========================================

Perhaps they are trying to kill all of us off.

You have asked this question several times and I thought someone should finally answer you.

CindyGSD's picture
CindyGSD
Posts: 191
Joined: Aug 2011

Remember THEY need to keep us alive or who would THEY sell their drugs too. ;o)

Cindy

gdpawel's picture
gdpawel
Posts: 549
Joined: May 2001

JoAnnDK

Good point!

The dose-dense protocol gives the drug more often, but not at a "lower" dose. Dose-dense chemotherapy shortens the treatment cycle while maintaining roughly the same chemotherapy dosage as conventional chemotherapy (the process reduction of time gap between two regular doses).

Dose-dense treatment is usually given with breaks of several weeks between doses to let the body try to recover. However, the anti-angiogenic effects of dose-dense therapy is masked and marginalized by administering it this way.

Low-dose chemotherapy not only shortens the treatment cycle but "lowers" the dosage of treatment a patient can withstand during shorten administration of "any" conventional drugs.

The main targets of dose-dense chemotherapy are proliferating tumor cells. The main targets of low-dose chemotherapy are the endothelial cells of the growing vasculature of a tumor. In other words (any) chemotherapeutics can be used as anti-angiogenic agents.

Blood vessel cells are less likely than tumor cells to become resistant to chemotherapy, so if cancer cells become drug resistant, these drugs should still be able to shrink tumors by destroying their blood supply.

Since the endothelial cells (involved in angiogenesis) are the first in the tumor to undergo cell death (apoptosis), the more frequent, and lower-dose therapy can have an impressive anti-angiogenic and anti-tumor effects.

Greg

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

double post

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

frequent therapy would be a very valid option. Which still leaves me with the question of why it isn't employed more often?

Do you think it has anything to do with how it would impact both the patients and the doctors schedules? Is it sort of a logistics problem, or is there no problem other than "we've always done it this way" being the usual three break heavy dosing?

What about a low dose more frequent approach with Taxol and the usual three week break dosing schedule for carbo to attack the proliferating cells.

On another note, What about the study with turmeric. If you don't mind thinking on these a bit, I would aprreciate your input.

I have one more question, isn't there a difference in the burden on a liver from cancer cells killed by chemo and those that die due to apoptosis. I realize that death is the end result in both cases but I had read that cancer cells that make the decision to die leave less toxicity than those killed. Do you know anything about that?

claudia

gdpawel's picture
gdpawel
Posts: 549
Joined: May 2001

I think it is a very valid option! It was the protocol my wife had in 1972, pill-dose Chlorambucil (Leukeran), frequently for a stage IV ovarian cancer. By giving chemotherapy more often, at lower doses, it can prevent the regrowth of blood vessels that feed tumors (angiogenesis).

Dose-dense (high-dose) chemotherapy was developed on the theory of cancer cell growth and replication developed in the 1980's known as the Gompertzian growth curve. Because chemotherapy is most effective when cancer cells are dividing the most rapidly, researchers speculated that timing chemotherapy dosage to attack cancer cells at their earliest stage of growth would yield superior results. Bad theory!

Since the endothelial cells (involved in angiogenesis) are the first in the tumor to undergo cell death (apoptosis), the more frequent, lower-dose therapy can have an impressive anti-angiogenic AND anti-tumor effects. Blood vessel cells are less likely than tumor cells to become resistant to chemotherapy and should still be able to shrink tumors by destroying their blood supply.

Your thought about "we've always done it this way" seems to be the best analogy I can think of. It's like making a 180 degree turn of a super-tanker on the high seas. It just doesn't happen on a dime. I believe it is changing, every so slowly.

http://cancerfocus.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3467

There are a number of agents other than Taxol that can do the job, only better.

They were looking for drugs to treat the inflammation seen in Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis. They tested a compound called a PPAR-gamma modulator. It would never normally have been thought of as a cancer drug, or in fact a drug of any kind. They ran several tests and found the compound killed pretty much every epithelial tumor cell lines they have seen. Epithelial cells line organs such as the colon, and also make up skin.

They reported in the journal International Cancer Research that it killed colon tumors in mice without making the mice sick. The compound worked in much the same way as the taxane drugs, including Taxol, which were originally derived from Pacific yew trees. It targets part of the cell cytoskeleton called tubulin. Tubulin is used to build microtubules, which in turn make up the cell's structure.

Destroying it kills the cell, but cancer cells eventually evolve mechanisms to pump out the drugs that do this, a problem called resistance. Resistance to anti-tubulin therapies, like Taxol, is a huge problem in many cancers. They see this as another way to get to the tubulin. The PPAR-gamma compound does this in a different way from the taxanes, which might mean it could overcome the resistance that tumor cells often develop to chemotherapy.

Most of the drugs like Taxol affect the ability of tubulin to form into microtubules. This doesn't do that -- it causes the tubulin itself to disappear. They do not know why. They planned to do more safety tests in mice. As the compound is already patented, the team will probably have to design something slightly different to be able to patent it as a new drug. BTW. It's called cabozantinib.

http://cancerfocus.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3430

What I know of Tumeric: http://cancerfocus.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2804

There are any number of variables that affect cancer drugs. These include the rate of excretion of the drugs by the kidneys and liver, protein binding and a myriad of other biological factors. Some anticancer drugs are actually pro-drugs: they need to be first activated in the liver before becoming biologically active. Prodrugs are bioreversible derivatives of drug molecules that undergo an enzymatic and/or chemical transformation in vivo (in body) to release the active parent drug, which can then exert the desired pharmacological effect.

Greg

JoAnnDK
Posts: 276
Joined: Jun 2011

yes, I already knew all of that, Greg. It has been discussed here many times.

JoAnnDK
Posts: 276
Joined: Jun 2011

Jobs was vegan his entire life, not just after he had cancer. He lived a very healthy lifestyle, according to those who knew him. He also took lots of supplements (most of which he found out about online) and consulted with alternative specialists. He exercised and meditated. Oh, and money was not a problem. Yes, he put off surgery for nine crucial months, but if what we talk about here is helpful, he never should have gotten cancer in the first place.

Just sayin'

norma2's picture
norma2
Posts: 486
Joined: Aug 2009

I caught that too in the news about Steve Jobs, JoAnn. Doesn't make sense does it?

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

While eliminating meat from your diet once diagnosed with cancer is a very good idea, that step alone is not the whole story. If your reasons are not wholly because you feel eating animals is not right and you are doing it strictly because of the highly acidic nature of the meat itself, you are on the right track.

Becoming a vegetarian can be beneficial. However, even in the vegetarian world, there still exist acidic and alkaline foods. Grains, and cheeses are acidic. Sodas, artificial sweeteners, sugars, white flour, processed cereals, coffee, alcohol are highly, highly acidic. So one can be a vegetarian or vegan and still have a diet that supports cancer growth and bone loss. Even black tea is somewhat acidic. Green tea fights cancer, especially when taken only with lemon and steeped for thirty minutes.
It is the totality of your actions that set the stage for your future health. Even whether or not your life in general causes you stress is relevant. A body under stress puts immune function on hold to fight what it considers a more pressing matter, as the immediate threat of danger trumps all else, survival is the key.

A person going out to dinner and having a drink, a steak, and dessert, is not doing themselves any favors, except their stress level would be pretty low, so there's that. A person going to a fast food restaurant and having the typical burger, diet soda and fries, that person is living in the worst of all worlds, as the acidic content, not to mention the fat and salt, are not their friends, nor is the atmosphere, unless you like that sort of thing. Their cancer is living it up, and busily dividing like nobody's business.

Knowing and focusing on those foods that are anti angiogenesis(angiogenesis is the establishment of a new blood supply to a growing turmor, without this new blood supply, your cancer cannot grow large enough to do you any damage) is extremely beneficial. Keeping a tumor from establishing a new blood supply is one of, if not the key goal if the objective is to survive, even with cancer.

A vegetarian or a person eating very, very little meat, while eating a preponderance of rice, beans, and cheese with a little ice cream and coffee on the side, as I had been when I got cancer, is also not doing themselves any favors. On the other hand if that same person puts the balance of their diet into the vegetable side of the vegetarian diet, with beans, rice and cheese on the side, that would be entirely different and a step in the right direction.

If I had known then what I know now, I seriously doubt I would find myself in this situation.

jazzy1's picture
jazzy1
Posts: 1387
Joined: Mar 2010

I've really stepped into side of being a vegetarian...lots of those organic vegies and fruits, plus adding some legumes, black beans, nuts, 4 servings per day of green tea, very little sugar, avoid anything processed, etc. etc. Yes I do have my fresh garlic, ginger, grains, and mix of turmeric/black pepper/olive oil. Now my question, grains aren't good...right? So...what do you eat or do you eat any grains? I'm a huge person on my steel oats every morning with cinnamon and ginger, and also add in some grain bread and almond butter (home-made) for lunch.

Luckily I was never ever, in my entire life, much of a meat eater, so when cancer entered my life, it was so easy to cut it ALL OUT..easy!!! Do try to add in the "mercury" free fishes....and do you eat fish? Looking for some guidance?

How about wheat pasta? Any carbs in your diet? I know brown rice isn't tops on our lists so I've switched to quinoa.

Stress? Wow is that a biggie on my list. I quite my corp job which probably pushed me over the edge into side of cancer diagnosis...never will know but that's my gut feeling. Today I do yoga each morning for up to 30 minutes, walk (very fast) outside for 1 hour and/or get to gym for my equipment workouts...we all know the weight-bearing exercises are so very important for our bone density. Mine has actually gotten better since my first DEXA scan 2 years prior....must be doing this right.

Extra weight on our bodies isn't good, and cancer has less chance of survival in aerobic environment...so get out and huff-and-puff during the exercising. Actually, is soothing for the mind as well.

Any suggestions ladies?

Hugs
Jan

Kaleena's picture
Kaleena
Posts: 1130
Joined: Nov 2009

JoAnn:

You are right. I saw that about Jobs and was thinking the same thing. I was told that I probably had my cancer from birth. It just took 45 years to develope. What triggered it? I lived by High Power Electric wires for awhile. We always had a garden, but was it the bug spray or stuff put on the plants to protect them. I lived by a Steel Town (actually my parents grew up in Pittsburgh) was it caused by them living in smog at the time?

We can't predict or pinpoint exactly what caused our cancer unless it is very apparent by some environmental issues or drug issues. We just have to find better ways to treat and cure it or vaccinate against it.

california_artist
Posts: 850
Joined: Jan 2009

It posts even when you hit stop. Sorry.

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