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Red meat vs Venison

hunter49
Posts: 199
Joined: Oct 2011

I read a lot that red meat is not good in the world of prostate cancer (most cncers actually). I can understand with beef especially with what they are feed and hormone fattened. However, I am an avid outdoorsman who loves venison. I often feed my family venison instead of red meat. It is all natural as far as no anibiotics and hormones and very lean. I also enjoy wild water fowl and turkey. Any help on if I am doing harm with that. Thanks

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Kongo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mar 2010

As you point out, red meat (actually most USA food products that come from animals) poses a problem for cancer patients in that the growth hormones given to cattle create enzymes known as Insulin Growth Factors (IGF) which is like giving candy to cancer. Wild venison or fowl should have much less of these chemicals but if a large part of your diet comes from animal protien you can still have a problem. I would also believe that "organic" red meat (grass fed) is better than the unnatural corn fed diet that produces the marbling, texture, and fat that Americans have grown to love.

A great book on the subject is The China Study, a very comprehensive look at the impact of the typical Western diet not only on cancers but in heart disease, dementia, MS, lupus, osteoperosis, and a host of other "rich country" ailments. One of the studies cited in this book involved giving mice a diet with varying percentages of animal protien. They found that you could actually turn cancer on and off by the amount of animal protien in the diet. Above 20% animal protien then cancers and other diseases tended to grow. Below 15% found that cancers did not start and even reversed (even in the presence of carcinogins).

While many men have adopted a vegan diet after their diagnosis, I have chosen to limit the animal protien in my diet to less than 15%. I travel a lot and found that going completely vegan was just too hard. The 15% plan is easily manageable.

Remember that "animal products" includes eggs and dairy. In my opinion, dairy is a far worse contributor to cancer growth than red meat. Like red meat but even more so, the IFGs in dairy are present at higher levels and it doesn't matter whether or not it's skim milk, low fat, unpasturized, or whatever. Dairy milk (and other dairy products such as cheese, yogurt, etc.) have very high levels of IGFs and other growth hormones even without the artifical kind. Cows milk is great for baby cows which need to grow to full size in only a few years. People, on the other hand, do not need mother's milk after about two years of age when the pituitary gland is fully developed. In fact, man is the only species that drinks the milk of other mammals. We've been doing this for about 7,000 years since cattle and other herding animals were domesticated. In China and other Asian countries where cattle were never domesticated (there simply weren't any suitable species) they never developed an affinity for dairy products. Instead soy became a major diet staple. In rural China prostate cancer incidence is about 1 in 100,000. In the US it is 1 in 6. Breast cancer in rural China is about 1 in 85,000. Here it is 1 in 8. You can do the math.

I avoid all dairy and only eat meat occasionally. In place of meat I eat a lot of soy products, including soy yogurt, soy cheese, and so forth which I have found to be delicious. You can even get soy sausage, soy hot dogs, and so forth. It's more expensive, but today there are many, many alternatives to red meat and dairy. I drink rice milk, soy milk, or almond milk. I found them all good tasting almost immediately. In any event, the taste buds in your mouth completely change out about every two weeks so even if you don't like it at first, if you stick with it for a while you will make a rapid adjustment.

Most of the physicans who treat cancer in the US today know very little about diet and nutrition and their affect on cancer. My own radiology oncologist, a Harvard graduate, took only two nutrition courses in his medical training...and that was twice what he was required to take.

There are a lot of quacks out there proclaiming miracle diets and so forth but if you take the time to research the fascinating basics of what goes on when you put food in your mouth I am sure you will be able to figure it out. Even naval aviators ought to be able to handle it (kidding -- I drove ships).

Good luck to you.

K

hunter49
Posts: 199
Joined: Oct 2011

You drove ships, I knew I liked you. Thank you for the analysis. Since I got diagnosed I have eaten red meat only 2 or 3 times. More fish and a lot of pasta with veggies. I now eat 3 to 4 pieces of fruit a day and drink 8 or more glasses of water. No coffe only teas (herbal of course). No candy but do cheat with my wifes apple crisp here and there. Working out and in general just slowing the pace down of work. I started a company that now employs almost 900 people across the country it does take a toll. I have a great Thai place by me and got turned on to thier spicy food with Tofu and brown rice of course. They use very little oil and it is a soy oil. Really good. I like the venison because after you gut a deer it has acorns, berries, grass and other wild nuts and plants in the digestive track. It has less fat and cholesterol than fish and more protien than beef. I read that spicy foods stimulate the bodies natural immune system. Is soy milk good with cereals. I love grape nuts and mini wheats. BTW, Kongo last night I went to see a radialogist about radiation instead of surgery and he basically said he would not treat me as with my score of 3+4 and a 95% on the 3 of 15 cores I would have the best chance of 20 year survival (95%) with surgery. The good news was sicnce the cores were were all in the same spot he feels the cancer is contained and no adjuvant theropy will be needed.

Kongo's picture
Kongo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mar 2010

Glad you saw a radiologist. Earlier the thought passed my mind that the two surgeons you visited, even though they are friends, was giving you a one-sided perspective. Now that you've talked to another specialist you probably won't have any second thoughts about whether or not you did enough research before making a decision. At your gentle age you have a much better chance of surgical recovery without pesky side effects. I hope it goes well for you and that you snag the #3 wire on this. You've got the "roger ball" part down pretty good in a short period of time.

BTW, the rice or almond milk on cereal is great. You won't notice the difference. Straight soy milk is OK but I like the vanilla flavor better. Also, you can pretty much use soy or rice milk in baking or making pancakes/waffles. My wife uses egg beaters when the baking requires eggs. I also use egg beaters when I make home made pasta which I love. I would never give up my daily Starbucks ritual, however. You have to draw the line somewhere. I still enjoy my martinis too...just not as many of them as before. And a good cabernet is always going to have a spot in my wine rack.

Frankly, I've learned that a prostate cancer diagnosis can cause a lot of positive things in your life. In March 2010 when I was diagnosed I couldn't even tell you for sure where the prostate was although I knew what a DRE was all about. Besides learning a lot about prostate cancer I've also learned much about diet and nutrition, lost weight, and believe I am much healthier today than I was then. Ironic isn't it? I continue to read books, studies, and have regular visits with my radiation oncologist as I am in a clinical trial. I think I learn something new everyday and this forum is a great place to continue growing your knowledge base. There are many very well informed posters here who have travelled the same path. I've also met some great people, both in person and on line, and I've found that has enriched my life.

I hope that when you have all this in the rear view mirror that you continue to learn about your disease and use the position you've created with your company to be a source of information and advice for those employees who will face the same decisions you had to make. Passing it on is a good thing.

hunter49
Posts: 199
Joined: Oct 2011

I like your style Kongo. I plan on putting this problem in my crosshairs and firing a sidewinder right ups its ass. I already have 3 of my employees going for PSA tests and colonoscopies. I never asked for this but it came to me for a reason. I will overcome and adapt then take the knowledge of this journey to do something posative. If in my life span, I get only one person to find out they had this disease who may have otherwise not known, then I will consider this a blessing. My dad died from a GBM in 2006. When he knew it was a terminal disease he said he was thankful. Of course I said of what. His reply was a stern, "because it is not you or your brother or mom or worse one of my grandchildren. I prepared to serve Christ my whole life so if he calls me, I am ready and wiil be fine. If not I will be here with you and also be fine" I get chills when I think of it. The worse part of PC is the stress it put on my wife. She is tough bird, a Marines daughter but it does take a toll. I wil do good things from here as you have done. BTW, I make wine every year with friends. Over 2000 bottles. Nice reds. Maybe someday we can share a glass and you can leave with a bottle or two or three.
ps. what ship were you on? My friend was captain of the Greenville.

Kongo's picture
Kongo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mar 2010

You have the right attitude. Fox-1, 2, and 3. BTW I had command of three ships and a destroyer squadron: Bronstein, Kinkaid, Clark, DESRON 26. Some interesting shore duty as well. Other ships were Enterprise, Merrill, Ranger, Fife, and W.H Standley. When I had the DESRON I deployed aboard George Washington. 11 deployments. While wearing a white hat I was a plank owner in VF-2.

Your father seems an inspiration and you obviously have taken aboard his lessons. Wives always tend to take the diagnosis hard, at least in my experience.

K

Beau2
Posts: 228
Joined: Sep 2010

I've used diet advice in a couple of books. "Promoting Wellness for Prostate Cancer Patients" by Dr. Mark Moyad; and "The Taste for Living Cookbook, Mike Milken's Recipes for Fighting Cancer." Milken is a Gleason 9 who credits dietary changes for much of his improvement.

I'm not sure if the dietary changes I have made will increase the number of years I will live; however, I am sure that they have improved my quality of life ... I feel better. In addition my weight, LDL and blood pressure have dropped.

Do I still eat red meat? Yes ... but rarely.

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