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i am comfused

skuttlebug
Posts: 45
Joined: May 2011

i am fairly new to cancer survivors network but this board is very confusing if it is for sprituality prayer and meditation then why all the arguing about it either you believe or you dont why try to take peoples hope away from them. if you dont believe why come to this board. i myself believe in miricles and am waiting. everyone should be able to have there own believes but dont try to push yours on anyone else. the lord is not about strife. denise

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

This issue has arisen in the past and will continue to arise. Some of us consider this a board for sharing our beliefs (or lack of beliefs, as the case may be) and our experiences without shoving the same down the throats of others. Others of us, sadly, insist that our beliefs are the ONLY true beliefs and further insist that all others are wrong.

Since this is a discussion board, I personally would expect that there be room for discussion about the subject topics rather than lockstep agreement for which I find no need, no purpose, no potential for enlightenment in any direction.

You might notice that this board is not titled the Christianity Board nor even the Theism Board. I could be mistaken but I believe the intent was for a broader forum, admitting expression from folks of all faith (and lack thereof as well).

It is ironic, in fact, that in your argument that 'the lord is not about strife' you suggest that all who don't agree with you should not come to this board, and yet add that we should not push our beliefs on you. To be clear, and to paraphrase, you are saying that we should not be here if we don't agree with you which is clearly a way of trying to push your beliefs down our throats.

Now I am the one confused.

Take care,

Joe

skuttlebug
Posts: 45
Joined: May 2011

i said everyone shoud be allowed to have there own believes just dont try to take something from someone that mabey thats all they have to hang onto and thiie shouldnt be strife. denise

Buckwirth's picture
Buckwirth
Posts: 1272
Joined: Jun 2010

It only gets contentious when someone takes a stance that excludes others, like saying Allah is the only way and all others are forsaken. Outside of that, each of us is just describing our personal journeys and the meaning of the same. Sometimes we try to relate that to the experience of another.

Personally, I come here when my hour is darkest, even though I have no faith, for I know that those here will listen, just as I will listen to them in their hour of need. Hopefully, you can do the same, and this can be a space of comfort and thought for you as well.

AussieMaddie's picture
AussieMaddie
Posts: 345
Joined: May 2011

Think I'm glad to have completely missed the 'strife' part of this thread, but I do like your words 'I believe the intent was for a broader forum, admitting expression from folks of all faith (and lack thereof as well)'

I have deeply held spiritual beliefs and yet I welcome the views of people of very different beliefs so long as they are expressed in a context of joining rather than separating human beings.

This forum in general, being about spirituality etc, is probably the most relevant to me personally. Certainly, it is my beliefs that give me the most strength in my journey, and help me to live at ease with whatever the outcome might be.

I'm a mixture of spiritual heart and intellectual curiosity that makes atheism look very attractive to me. But then, so does Zen. I don't see atheists having more reason to fear the 'afterlife' than I do - but maybe more reason to fear the during-life as I believe that they are the true outsiders in Western - and many other - cultures where *belonging* to a religion marks one as acceptable within the particular society. Neither do I believe that any religion holds a patent on 'good' or 'right'.

It's never the belief, in itself, that makes us happy. It's only how we live our belief. If it serves to remind us of our common humanity, then it is healing, otherwise it is not.

In a place like this, where people come together to share our human frailty, nowhere is it more needed to recall that it doesn't matter from where we draw our beliefs, but only that they be healing - or at least empowering - for us.

Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, talk of angels, speak of Allah or Jesus, tell me that there is nothing beyond the known (no more than peace that resides in sleep without dreams), tell me how love for anything gives you comfort and I am happier in knowing that you are happy because, while I may not empathize with your belief, I will certainly empathize with the joy it gives you.

AussieMaddie

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

Very well said.

Welcome!

Take care,

Joe

bluerose's picture
bluerose
Posts: 1089
Joined: Jul 2009

If there is anything that will start a war it's either religion or politics on discussion boards and throughout history. Wars have started throughout time based on religious disagreements and that's something that will never end - people are rabid about their religious beliefs and an attack on them causes outbursts, it's just the way it is.

However, when a person is on a cancer site like this you would think that they would have a little more understanding and caring about everyone's own beliefs because it is those beliefs that help them through the cancer journey - which as we all know up close and personal is not easy all on it's own without introducting attacks and arguements yet. I would hope that people would be a little more understanding of people's personal beliefs on a board such as this.

Having said all that we have freedom of speech soooooooooooooo.

I know that my religious beliefs got me through, and continue to guide me through, my journey with and after cancer and without them I don't even want to imagin how black that time and this time would have been. I often share my experiences with my own miracles I believe I have witnessed and experienced in order to encourage others and show them that there is indeed hope in all of this and hope is a priceless comodity to have.

Let's try to be more understanding and compassionate of others on this board. What use is fighting? Most of us have precious little energy as it is. Right? Right.

Blessings,

Bluerose

skuttlebug
Posts: 45
Joined: May 2011

bluerose thank you all im trying to say is everyone should be able to have there own believe and not be attacked for saying it. i feel like the first posted my thoughts on being confused i was attacked. i feel everyone should have what they need in there darkest hour. denise

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4679
Joined: May 2005

If you were here a while ago (1-2 years) you'd possibly understand how and why this forum came into being. Things have been working the way it was intended to work for the most part lately. I hope it stays that way.

Oh, and welcome Denise!
-phil

skuttlebug
Posts: 45
Joined: May 2011

thank you for the welcome i try not to step on anyones toes and to give them respect who am i to say whos right and whose wrong no one i have my beieves and other people have theres i just dont think we should argue i dont know about anyone else but i have eneough promblems and i would never try to shove anyting down anyone else throat sorry if i came off that way. denise

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4679
Joined: May 2005

You came off fine. No one has the "ultimate truth", we just have what is true for us. Problems arise when we are told we are all wrong and going to hell or someplace and have to listen to them for eternity (which WOULD be hell)

That is not the norm around here, it was the exception. We'll all find out what happens in due time. Meanwhile, it's in open forum for this and that and that and this.
Welcome
-p

pstur1's picture
pstur1
Posts: 40
Joined: May 2009

Always nice to meet new people but sorry our common ground is cancer. I don't post much skuttle for various reasons but one of them is the lack of acceptance from some when it comes to debate and/or dissension. What is wrong with debate and dissension, ESPECIALLY where faith and/or lack of faith is concerned. I suppose I could sit here and debate with myself but I fear this will not get me far. What is the flippin problem with disagreement??? Have we become such a shallow society that we must always point at the emperor and exclaim how lovely his clothes are? Seriously?

Please understand, I am simply sharing, this is no way directed towards you because frankly I am glad that you and others ask these questions, it gives me something to think about, to sink my teeth into, to remind myself that I can think and discern because I am ALIVE!!!

CSN has been of great comfort to me (chatroom and this forum). If nothing else, I simply get to connect with others who understand this cancer journey. So everyone doesn't agree with me....sorry but that isn't exactly a news worthy point....people will always disagree with me, you, and everyone else. Otherwise we are Stepford wives, robot individuals, and frankly BORING! I have to add that without debate, there is little knowledge gained in some cases.

I came out of the womb ready to debate, does this make me a horrible person? I think so not. I have questioned faith, self, and others my entire life! I am still asking the same question that I did at age 5, what is wrong with having a debate over something you don't understand and/or need clarification on? What is wrong with questioning someone if only to be able to understand them as well as self. Is this concept so darned hard for that many people?

I recently posted on one of the other forums on here of which I will NEVER post to again. I don't want to belong to the Mutual Admiration Society, thank you but no thank you. That bores the bejeevies out of me! You (global you) post a question or offer a thought to ponder, then we respond or not. Simple right? Not so much! If you disagree you get hit with emails and posts to the tune you want to jump through the computer and smack people upside the head. I questioned the motive, I certainly didn't attack the person and yet....all heck breaks lose because I have offended someone's silly sensibilities. So now, instead of using the forum for my particular cancer, I don't because unless I am willing to give little more than kudos and high fives I am thoughtless, uncaring, and even called names for it...yeah, that is what questioning can get you BUT not always....questioning often leads to greater understanding....a good thing, a positive thing but unfortunately it can also lead to hurt feelings and misunderstandings...it is what you make it.

If a post is disturbing to us we have options...hmmm...ignore, don't read, assume the other person is having a really hard time and needs to vent, accept them as they are, argue back....many many options but complaining about debate is silly, sorry. Duh, again, another simple solution to a minor issue. I put myself out there when I offer alternative thought and as such I should be mature enough to know that I will get feedback and not always in the form I would prefer...that is how it works on a discussion board or in life. If you don't like dissension then you might not want to read the boards is all I am saying and I would add that wrapping yourself in bubble wrap and hiding in a closet is probably the ticket because there is nothing but debate and life out there, it isn't always sunshine and puppy dog tails!

This particular forum is the only one I read anymore. It seems to be the most accepting and HONEST regardless of the debates. The people that frequent this forum are good, thoughtful people that disagree at times and yet agree to do so.

I am one of those darn people on the fence because I don't really believe in a god yet I am still open to thought on the subject. I am a wannabe Buddhist with tendencies towards nothing. I don't mind when people offer me prayer, it is sincere and who knows, it might help! I do learn from these comments on here whether I agree or not and I welcome dissension darn it, it makes the world go round!!!!!

Frankly debate has gotten a very bad rep on here and that is unfortunate. You don't have to be a jerk when debating, a clear and thoughtful disagreement never killed anyone that I know of.

I also get very weary of the "I am dying from cancer, can't we all just get along?" NO, life continues for all and will not stop because we are dying from cancer. I wish everyone sugar plums and dancing fairies but it isn't going to happen I don't think but if you figure it out please let me know because I wouldn't mind a few sugar plums and fairies to be quite honest.

Again, welcome to the group denise.

Kelley

skuttlebug
Posts: 45
Joined: May 2011

thanks for the welcome i will offer you sugar plums which would be my prayers fairies you will have have to find. if you find some send one my way i can use one. denise

pstur1's picture
pstur1
Posts: 40
Joined: May 2009

The minute I find a fairy, I will let you know...LOL....Take care.

Kelley

AussieMaddie's picture
AussieMaddie
Posts: 345
Joined: May 2011

"I came out of the womb ready to debate"

Funny about that. I came out of the womb asking questions. Have never stopped. I'm not sure if we are saying something similar.

I add the following, not directed to you personally, but because I too have opinions about debate.

I love a good debate, but I'm also aware that what is debate for one person, is not for another depending, for one thing, upon the energy that is exhibited when "debating". Those who lack as much energy (confidence or even the interest) in expressing their views may often experience the "debate" as a platform for those who have. Debate requires at least two points of view, expressed in roughly equal proportion of energy and interest. Without either, it's not a debate. It may be a monologue or a sermon, but it's not a debate. I will say also that I love a good argument. By that I mean an energetic exchange of ideas, in which both sides again bring to the encounter roughly the same energy and interest. When energy exerted in a debate comes across as not hearing the other's point of view, then the debate dwindles from lack of enough oxygen, so to speak. One with lesser confidence can feel bombarded by verbosity (I am so guilty of that) or by the sheer complexity of the debate. It can also happen that one or more people can't see past their own views to hearing someone else's. That too is not a debate. For a debate to be one, it requires not a platform, not even a good idea, but someone else able to reciprocate in kind. Children have debates that may make no sense whatsoever, but if both come out energized by it, it was a great debate!

Some things you have said I would disagree with:

I don't have a clue what caused you to think another person to have "silly sensibilities". Whatever may be, "sensibilities" aren't meant to be *sensible* and so it follows that neither can they be "silly".

"questioning often leads to greater understanding"
In my case, it can also lead to more questions, because I see a vista so wide that, when one door is opened on an idea, five more stand before me. That, I love.

On the subject of belief, while I agree to differ in those, I will match your questioning on the matter - I don't believe in a God which sits in distinction at the head of the table (though of course I respect those who do). "a wannabe Buddhist with tendencies towards nothing". Definitely can place that (if my own spiritual belief fit me a little less well.) Zen in particular suits me well and doesn't conflict with my belief. And Zen, to me, is very specifically about letting go of *everything*. Mmm.. what's left?

"I welcome dissension darn it, it makes the world go round!!!!! "
But not everyone's world :) I could handle it for a time, but, despite my birthright to question, I'm also drawn very strongly to the Zen notion of not holding onto anything or to identify oneself by what one has - even ideas. Must say that I haven't been able to live up to that ideal. Maybe next lifetime I'll be born with a still mind. Right now, in this one, the idea of that hurts! As much as I see the extraordinary wisdom in still mindedness, my failing is that I *want* to identify with ideas. My mum should have rolled to the opposite direction when I was delivered.

"clear and thoughtful disagreement"
Mmm.. Have you noticed that most disagreements - unless staged - are often not clear precisely because they are not based on thought. When they are, it's great (for you and I and others besides) When they aren't, then there is room to step back and respect what may be an expression of faith or feeling. To me, the person is more important than the ideas that he/she is expressing. One can respect the person while suspending disagreement. It need not make for a wishy washy relationship, but simply a mutually respectful one. It's about agreeing at times to disagree.

"I am dying from cancer, can't we all just get along?" NO, life continues for all and will not stop because we are dying from cancer."
No?? And so say all of... (who was that again?) :)

To my knowledge, which admittedly is very little on the subject, but "sugar plums and dancing fairies" don't face their mortality, don't have feelings such as grief and pain which would require them to find peace in any quarter that they can.

And so say all of.. mmm.. (oh, that's right, *me*)

Yours, in everlasting observance to the debate :)

AussieMaddie

mariam_11_09's picture
mariam_11_09
Posts: 693
Joined: Nov 2009

The title of this board is 'spirituality, prayer and meditation'. Nowhere in the title does it say 'Religion' however no-one is banned from this board because of religion or lack thereof and neither is anyone banned from this board because of their beliefs. Not believing in God is a belief, the belief there is no God.

As I have mentioned before
one can be religious and not spiritual
one can be spiritual and not religious
one can be spiritual and religious
one can be neither spiritual nor religious

one can pray and not be religious
one can meditate without a spiritual or religious background.

This all evolves because of a wide variety of backgrounds and beliefs. For me, because of this I have learnt to question my own beliefs and find deeper meaning as well as understand and accept other people's belief systems. All of us have the opportunity to grow and learn from all of this diversity. It makes life juicy and interesting. It is a reason I like to come to this board. I enjoy reading what other's have to say and enjoy being questioned and challenged it encourages me to reflect on a deeper level and I experience this as support even though our beliefs are different.

No-one is trying to take anyone's hope away from them. No-one can take your hope away or your beliefs. Some of us have hope no matter what and some of us choose non-attachment to hope because the opposite of hope is despair. Neither is right or wrong, it is just what we choose in life based on where we are in our own process.

Some people have come to this board with an agenda and it has created conflict. In my experience, this conflict has arisen out of their need to control or proselytise the Christian faith and many of us have pushed back. You do say that eveyone should have their own beliefs so hence you can understand why people on this board do not want proselytising. Sharing of beliefs, yes, questioning of beliefs, yes but proselytising NO!

There are many people on this board who are religious and do share religious experiences and never proselytise. I hope this make sense.

AussieMaddie's picture
AussieMaddie
Posts: 345
Joined: May 2011

Hi Mariam,

I still don't know what people are referring to when they speak of conflict here.

What you say makes completes sense, and you speak well. I'm just unaware of the conflict, whether it's something that has existed in the past, as I think Phil has said, or if you still see it here.

Speaking entirely for myself, I haven't seen it, or felt it.

I'm sorry if it contines to trouble you.

I bring with me a non-judgemental attitude like you, and so far, I haven't crossed paths with anyone whith whom I feel uncomfortale. Neither has anyone tried to prozeletize to me. Given that I'd rather walk away if I did think somene was prozelytizing, I don't expect to be troubled by it at all.

I hope that you can find comfort in the well-meaning of most people here, and feel better about being here :)

Take good care,

AussieMaddie

((( hugs )))

mariam_11_09's picture
mariam_11_09
Posts: 693
Joined: Nov 2009

Hi AussieMaddie,

Good thing you haven't encountered the 'conflict' that some of us have. It has gotten very nasty at times and there are still some lingereing threads to remind us of this.

Most people who frequent this board are well-meaning however there has been a little riff-raff who have tried to exhibit some force and when some of us have pushed back they cry 'persecution'. In many cases they are violating the terms and conditions that they agreed to when signing up on this website.

I have nothing against what people choose to believe however we don't need another round of the crusadors and nor do we need another jihad.

Yes, I do enjoy the contribution of most of the members of this board, hence the reason I keep coming back and at least reading the posts even if I don't have the bandwith to contribute.

peace be upon you
Mariam

skuttlebug
Posts: 45
Joined: May 2011

Yes, I do have my belifes, mine is Christanity, which is spirtual. So I don't belive that I am just talking about religon I belive that my belifes ARE spirtaul, but I see no reason to debate this issue. I offten question myself about my belifes, but I know what I belive in my heart. I know what I feel, it isn't only what I read. My spirt agree's with the spirt of he lord.

~Denise(:

((Hugs))

AussieMaddie's picture
AussieMaddie
Posts: 345
Joined: May 2011

Hi :)

"I see no reason to debate this issue" - then don't debate it even if others want to.

Your heart is full.

That's al that matters :)

((( Denise )))

skuttlebug
Posts: 45
Joined: May 2011

If I came off souding like all that mattered was that my heart was full I apoligise. I just don't like to debate some subjects.

~Denise.<3

AussieMaddie's picture
AussieMaddie
Posts: 345
Joined: May 2011

I apologize if my words hurt you. I certainly didn't mean them too.
To feel good in your heart about what you blieve is wonderful, and there is never any need to debate anything that you don't want to. Not ever. And there is never any reason to feel sorry about that ((( protective hugs ))).

If ever you feel vulnerable or scared, just call me aside, or anyone you feel safe with, to protect you with hugs until you feel better :)

One thing only: I can't do chat. It's simply too fast for me. I can never keep up with who's saying what. And I write at as slowly as a snail tripping over Coke cans and rubbish tossed on a sandy beach.

For now,

love,

AussieMaddie

skuttlebug
Posts: 45
Joined: May 2011

Thankyou that was very sweet, but I had thought I had hurt your feelings. Somtimes I do feel alone, and I really need someone to talk to. I don't do chat either, I type even slower than you-somtimes I feel so bad that my thirteen year old daughter typer for meilike right now-((HI!)). Her fingers really fly across the keys.

Hugs, Blessings
~Denise(:

AussieMaddie's picture
AussieMaddie
Posts: 345
Joined: May 2011

If it helps, you are definitely not alone in not knowing as much about computing as your nine year old. My niece and her husband bought bought, as a Christmas gift, a part-toy, part-real computer for their two year old!

Not sure, but I think it's called progress. I just feel sorry for the days when children played outdoors and did a lot more exercise.

Love,

Aussie Maddie.
Not staying long online tonight so will catch up another night :)

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