This has never happened before... Really Low WBC
I am frustrated. It seems like the more I try to do to keep him healthy it doesn't work. He is on MEGA doses of vitamins prescribed by a integrative doctor. We gave up processed sugar and flour which is VERY hard. I'm cooking, juicing and preparing food all of the time. Why isn't this keeping his body healthy? Darn Chemo, its wearing him down. More erbitux...more sores ..more likely to have infection enter the body. More avastin...more bleeding..more Irronitecan ..more diahrea. No CHEMO...More cancer.
I did look up some TCM doctors in the area as John23 speaks of. I found a few names at OSU. Not sure about the specifics yet, but I'm going to call and see what they need to set up an appointment. My husband is only 36 and we have a two year old. I spend every night reading up on something. Whether it is ozone therapy, multi wave frequency or foods to eat to fight cancer. Frustrated.
Any other stage 4s to experience nutrepenia (sp) and were fine? When? How long does it take for WBC to build up again? Is there anything else we can do? Do you worry about taking ibuprofen with avastin? How long did your fever last?
Thanks for listening,
Erin
Comments
-
Erin.............Lets look at this .....in a nutshell..ok...
First, lets see what we can do away with and still be in the same position we are now...
As far as infection....has he been doing chemo and if so have they been checking constantly for low WBC counts...and if they are low are they postponing chemo or giving him Neulasta or Neupagen to boost it (WBC)...before they start his chemo again his counts should be up...Im sure you know all of this Erin, I just want to maybe give you a little different perspective in case someone is missing something somewhere or something isn't mixing right. I had Neulasta after every chemo treatment. I had to to be able to continue treatments at 2 week intervals. Now, infection is not good when counts are down and most likely you can tell if it is an infected port. The site may be red and very tender to the touch. If it is it is most likely the culprit for the infection.....
Another thing to check on.....is the TCM and the chemo pallatible to each other along with all the vitamins he takes as well...You may need an outside expert opinion on this, he may be getting to much of a good thing, and it may be the cause of a lot of his problem.
I understand that you are frustrated to the max, I understand, truly I do, but sometimes taking a step back and re punting the ball may help in getting him in a zone going forward, and it may be something that his body is trying to tell us, and we're simply overthinking.....I like an outside opinion when Im bumfuzzled, I hope you didn't mind mine.....Love to you both, Clift0 -
Whew.
Re:
"I'm cooking, juicing and preparing food all of the time. Why
isn't this keeping his body healthy? Darn Chemo, its wearing him
down. More erbitux...more sores ..more likely to have infection
enter the body. More avastin...more bleeding..more Irronitecan
..more diahrea. No CHEMO...More cancer. "
Chemo kills cancer cells, but it also kills any and all other cells
that are growing at the same speed. There is presently no safe
and precise way to deliver the poison to cancer cells alone.
And to that extent, nothing has changed with chemotherapy for
a very, very long time. The drugs used are not "new", they have
been around for a long time; renamed, reformulated, and many
re-patented, but the same, none the less. (and yes, you can
research that fact)
Many of us have chosen to fight cancer using our body instead
of chemicals, But refusing conventional western medicine is a
scary thing to do!
Even more scary, when your friends tell you that you will be
making a mistake that will cost you your life!
What they don't realize, is that when chemical therapy fails to
do it's intended job, the cancer victim is usually too weak to
try anything else, and -that- will cost the life of the patient.
An alternative will not leave you too weak, or your immune system
depleted if it fails to work; you have time to try something else.
The idea is, to -not- wait too long to change direction, regardless
of what choice you make. If an alternative isn't doing the trick,
try something else...... if chemo isn't doing it, try something else.
Your last statement: "No CHEMO...More cancer.", is
the common assumption that chemo is the only thing to prevent
cancer, and that without it, cancer grows.
Many here have had cancer surgery, have had cancer in more
than 4 lymph nodes, were stage 3 or 4, and did not have any
chemotherapy treatments.... and are still here, alive and well.
Many are still here, that have had -minimal- chemotherapy after
surgery, and are still here alive and well.
So why the continuous chemo? Why chemo when there are no
signs of cancer? Why is there such fear of not having chemo?
All physicians will tell you that a chemotherapy drug for a specific
cancer may not work for that same cancer once it moves from that
location. Yet other physicians are telling people that even if they
can't locate a cancer, that chemotherapy should be used to "mop up".
How is that "mop up" going to occur if one drug can't be used for
any/all cancers?
Fear drives the industry as much as the greed. we can't stop the greed,
but we can learn to not fear cancer, and we can learn not to fear trying
something else, when one "cure" isn't working for us.
Before you do anything else, get opinions from physicians that are
not of the same group or organization. Do that while you still have
time to do that.
If you want to try an alternative but are afraid to take the chance,
don't be afraid to try it along with conventional "chemo", if that's
what will make you feel safer.
The immune system is very, very important in the fight against
cancer. You should attempt to get the immune system working
to it's best possible state. Every medication that weakens the
immune system carries a warning label, that tells you that it
can allow a cancer to grow, and/or should not be used if you
have a history of cancer. That is how important the immune
system is, in preventing and fighting cancer!
If your partner is experiencing infections and running a fever,
then the immune system is already working to capacity. It's going
to be drained if that situation continues too long. But the fact
that there already is an infection running rampant, tells me that
the immune system was already too weak to kill the infection
early on; that problem should be remedied ASAP.
I'm glad to read that you're hunting for a decent TCM doc.
If you can't locate one for any reason, or are unsure of the
choice, drop me a PM with your location (city/state only),
and I'll see if I can help locate a decent doc.
I have a few links in the "blog" section of my "about me" page,
and some things may be of help to you there.
Good luck with all this. And don't worry, things will be fine!
John0 -
Doris E Knight bumped me toJohn23 said:Whew.
Re:
"I'm cooking, juicing and preparing food all of the time. Why
isn't this keeping his body healthy? Darn Chemo, its wearing him
down. More erbitux...more sores ..more likely to have infection
enter the body. More avastin...more bleeding..more Irronitecan
..more diahrea. No CHEMO...More cancer. "
Chemo kills cancer cells, but it also kills any and all other cells
that are growing at the same speed. There is presently no safe
and precise way to deliver the poison to cancer cells alone.
And to that extent, nothing has changed with chemotherapy for
a very, very long time. The drugs used are not "new", they have
been around for a long time; renamed, reformulated, and many
re-patented, but the same, none the less. (and yes, you can
research that fact)
Many of us have chosen to fight cancer using our body instead
of chemicals, But refusing conventional western medicine is a
scary thing to do!
Even more scary, when your friends tell you that you will be
making a mistake that will cost you your life!
What they don't realize, is that when chemical therapy fails to
do it's intended job, the cancer victim is usually too weak to
try anything else, and -that- will cost the life of the patient.
An alternative will not leave you too weak, or your immune system
depleted if it fails to work; you have time to try something else.
The idea is, to -not- wait too long to change direction, regardless
of what choice you make. If an alternative isn't doing the trick,
try something else...... if chemo isn't doing it, try something else.
Your last statement: "No CHEMO...More cancer.", is
the common assumption that chemo is the only thing to prevent
cancer, and that without it, cancer grows.
Many here have had cancer surgery, have had cancer in more
than 4 lymph nodes, were stage 3 or 4, and did not have any
chemotherapy treatments.... and are still here, alive and well.
Many are still here, that have had -minimal- chemotherapy after
surgery, and are still here alive and well.
So why the continuous chemo? Why chemo when there are no
signs of cancer? Why is there such fear of not having chemo?
All physicians will tell you that a chemotherapy drug for a specific
cancer may not work for that same cancer once it moves from that
location. Yet other physicians are telling people that even if they
can't locate a cancer, that chemotherapy should be used to "mop up".
How is that "mop up" going to occur if one drug can't be used for
any/all cancers?
Fear drives the industry as much as the greed. we can't stop the greed,
but we can learn to not fear cancer, and we can learn not to fear trying
something else, when one "cure" isn't working for us.
Before you do anything else, get opinions from physicians that are
not of the same group or organization. Do that while you still have
time to do that.
If you want to try an alternative but are afraid to take the chance,
don't be afraid to try it along with conventional "chemo", if that's
what will make you feel safer.
The immune system is very, very important in the fight against
cancer. You should attempt to get the immune system working
to it's best possible state. Every medication that weakens the
immune system carries a warning label, that tells you that it
can allow a cancer to grow, and/or should not be used if you
have a history of cancer. That is how important the immune
system is, in preventing and fighting cancer!
If your partner is experiencing infections and running a fever,
then the immune system is already working to capacity. It's going
to be drained if that situation continues too long. But the fact
that there already is an infection running rampant, tells me that
the immune system was already too weak to kill the infection
early on; that problem should be remedied ASAP.
I'm glad to read that you're hunting for a decent TCM doc.
If you can't locate one for any reason, or are unsure of the
choice, drop me a PM with your location (city/state only),
and I'll see if I can help locate a decent doc.
I have a few links in the "blog" section of my "about me" page,
and some things may be of help to you there.
Good luck with all this. And don't worry, things will be fine!
John
Doris E Knight bumped me to the third page. Anyway I know the cancer grew when he wasn't on Chemo, because it showed in his CT. I don't know if it would grow now considering all of the new things we are trying, but he isn't even scheduled for a small break until December then another decent sized break over the summer. Thank you for responding. It helps.
Erin0 -
I also had WBC bottom out
I also had WBC bottom out after 1st treatment. Spiked a temp, admitted to the hospital for 4 days. Mine was a blood infection at the port site. I was on MAJOR antibiotics for several weeks (as in home health coming in and checking port and giving myself injections into a port line). I am surprised they didn't admit him, they don't mess around when WBC get so low. I also then got the shots Buzz talks about to keep my WBC from tanking out again. Good Luck0 -
Check with your onc re the mega-vitamins
Things that are good for us when we don't have cancer are also good for cancer cells and can counter-act the treatments. For example, you shouldn't have anti-oxidants during most chemos or rads, as those therapies are trying to kill the cancer by oxidizing. Anti-oxidants can negate the effects of the chemo. I can give you a link to an MSK lecture from their Integrative Medicine department on this.
That being said, mega-vits shouldn't affect his WBC, so it is important to find out what is happening there.
Good luck with all,
Alice0 -
Erin:
Gosh I'm sorry. Here you do everything you can and just can't catch the big break. I stopped doing so much research and reading, I was getting confused and on overload and frustrated. Its good to have a few notes on different treatments but I truly found if I throw out a treatment or question on the board I get more personal experience with it than all the reading I was doing. I found so many sites saying their treatment is the answer I was frustrated. If their treatment is the answer, why are so many of our semi-colons suffering so.
You say he is getting mega doses of vitamins, etc. Maybe he is just getting too much. I try to be careful (and so does George) on what he eats but I still cook some of his favorite foods. What I do stay away from is all the processed stuff and frozen stuff, fatty stuff, fast food, stuff like that. Like the other week I made stuffed cabbage. Yep, it is a lot of work, but I knew everything in it. Might be easier to buy frozen but doesn't taste the same and scratch made had no processed junk in it. Am I doing the right thing, I don't know, but sure hope so.
George had a fever once on a Saturday. I called in and within 20 minutes the onc on call called back. He asked a few questions, recommended Tylenol. The onc called back in about an hour or so and George's fever was almost back to normal so no trip to the ER for us. Never knew what caused it because it went down and was over. He never had low WBC or Platelet problems. If your hubby continues to have the problem make the hospital admit him to find the source. Filling him with antibiotics might work, but getting to the source of the problem is the answer you need.
Come back and let us know how things go - Tina0 -
He still has a slight fevergeotina said:Erin:
Gosh I'm sorry. Here you do everything you can and just can't catch the big break. I stopped doing so much research and reading, I was getting confused and on overload and frustrated. Its good to have a few notes on different treatments but I truly found if I throw out a treatment or question on the board I get more personal experience with it than all the reading I was doing. I found so many sites saying their treatment is the answer I was frustrated. If their treatment is the answer, why are so many of our semi-colons suffering so.
You say he is getting mega doses of vitamins, etc. Maybe he is just getting too much. I try to be careful (and so does George) on what he eats but I still cook some of his favorite foods. What I do stay away from is all the processed stuff and frozen stuff, fatty stuff, fast food, stuff like that. Like the other week I made stuffed cabbage. Yep, it is a lot of work, but I knew everything in it. Might be easier to buy frozen but doesn't taste the same and scratch made had no processed junk in it. Am I doing the right thing, I don't know, but sure hope so.
George had a fever once on a Saturday. I called in and within 20 minutes the onc on call called back. He asked a few questions, recommended Tylenol. The onc called back in about an hour or so and George's fever was almost back to normal so no trip to the ER for us. Never knew what caused it because it went down and was over. He never had low WBC or Platelet problems. If your hubby continues to have the problem make the hospital admit him to find the source. Filling him with antibiotics might work, but getting to the source of the problem is the answer you need.
Come back and let us know how things go - Tina
He still has a slight fever on and off. I gave him tylenol then motrin and later on today he will go back to the hospital to get more IV antibiotics. They don't like to admit their cancer patients since they can catch something worse in a hospital.
We'll see what the oncologist says later this week. He wasn't on call and it was just an ER doc consulting with another oncologist. I'll let you guys know what is going on with his port & future treatment later this week. He used to get Nueslata but the doc didn't think he would need it on this treatment. He's still on CPT 11, Avastin and Erbitux-why wouldn't he need it? With him being a teacher, he is around kids all of the time and can't help being exposed. I am glad he has a great attitude. I don't know if I would.
As for the anti-oxidants I was told by the integrative doctor there haven't been enough studies to prove that chemo doesn't work as effectively with them and it is more important to keep your body healthy. What the doctor prescribed for him isn't going to have an effect on how the chemo works-but then again it is not keeping his body from getting low WBC either.I will be interested to look at the site from MSK. Thank you.
Erin0 -
ErinErinb said:He still has a slight fever
He still has a slight fever on and off. I gave him tylenol then motrin and later on today he will go back to the hospital to get more IV antibiotics. They don't like to admit their cancer patients since they can catch something worse in a hospital.
We'll see what the oncologist says later this week. He wasn't on call and it was just an ER doc consulting with another oncologist. I'll let you guys know what is going on with his port & future treatment later this week. He used to get Nueslata but the doc didn't think he would need it on this treatment. He's still on CPT 11, Avastin and Erbitux-why wouldn't he need it? With him being a teacher, he is around kids all of the time and can't help being exposed. I am glad he has a great attitude. I don't know if I would.
As for the anti-oxidants I was told by the integrative doctor there haven't been enough studies to prove that chemo doesn't work as effectively with them and it is more important to keep your body healthy. What the doctor prescribed for him isn't going to have an effect on how the chemo works-but then again it is not keeping his body from getting low WBC either.I will be interested to look at the site from MSK. Thank you.
Erin
I'm glad hubby's doing a little better. Being a teacher you absolutely have to keep the immune system up and watch those WBC. It does seem that he needs his count boosted if he's going to be around all those kids. They are just regular little germ manufacturers and distributors. I've spent 23 years keeping a child with severe combined immune deficiency alive and one of the best things I ever did for him (medically ... not so much socially/developmentally) was to take him out of school and have him tudored at home. Here are some more natural suggestions that you might try (Of ourse check with the onc to make sure that none of these will interfer with his current chemo:
Eat plenty of protein. The body generally needs around 50 grams of protein, and it is important for white blood cell generation that you eat enough lean proteins like chicken, fish and beans.
Eat carrots, or take Vitamin A and beta-carotene supplements. While Vitamin A does not regenerate white blood cells, it can help make them function better and will increase your resistence to infection. Beta-carotene works in conjunction with Vitamin A to make the immune system stronger.
Make sure you have enough B vitamins. A B vitamin deficiency can lead to decreased white blood cells. B6 and B12 are especially important.
Increase Vitamin C intake, either through diet, supplements or through an injection given by your doctor. I know one doctor who actually gives himself IV vitamin C as part of his immune building regimine.
Ingest more Vitamin E. Your body needs about 400 to 800 i.u. of Vitamin E every day, and maintaining a good level of Vitamin E may boost your immune system and white blood cell counts. Be careful to not overdo the Vitamin E, because it may actually work against you.
Take iron supplements, or eat iron-rich foods such as red meat, broccoli and spinach.
Try mineral supplements such as arginine, alkylclycerol, CoEnzyme Q10, dimethyglycine and phytonutrients such as garlic, echinacea and cat's claw. These minerals all may have a role in boosting white blood cell count.
Eat medicinal mushrooms, such as Coriolis, Cordyceps or Ganoderma. Sometimes you can find these particular mushrooms dry, they are mostly sold in the U.S. in powder or capsule form.0 -
Erin you better eat these mushrooms in a good restaurantLori-S said:Erin
I'm glad hubby's doing a little better. Being a teacher you absolutely have to keep the immune system up and watch those WBC. It does seem that he needs his count boosted if he's going to be around all those kids. They are just regular little germ manufacturers and distributors. I've spent 23 years keeping a child with severe combined immune deficiency alive and one of the best things I ever did for him (medically ... not so much socially/developmentally) was to take him out of school and have him tudored at home. Here are some more natural suggestions that you might try (Of ourse check with the onc to make sure that none of these will interfer with his current chemo:
Eat plenty of protein. The body generally needs around 50 grams of protein, and it is important for white blood cell generation that you eat enough lean proteins like chicken, fish and beans.
Eat carrots, or take Vitamin A and beta-carotene supplements. While Vitamin A does not regenerate white blood cells, it can help make them function better and will increase your resistence to infection. Beta-carotene works in conjunction with Vitamin A to make the immune system stronger.
Make sure you have enough B vitamins. A B vitamin deficiency can lead to decreased white blood cells. B6 and B12 are especially important.
Increase Vitamin C intake, either through diet, supplements or through an injection given by your doctor. I know one doctor who actually gives himself IV vitamin C as part of his immune building regimine.
Ingest more Vitamin E. Your body needs about 400 to 800 i.u. of Vitamin E every day, and maintaining a good level of Vitamin E may boost your immune system and white blood cell counts. Be careful to not overdo the Vitamin E, because it may actually work against you.
Take iron supplements, or eat iron-rich foods such as red meat, broccoli and spinach.
Try mineral supplements such as arginine, alkylclycerol, CoEnzyme Q10, dimethyglycine and phytonutrients such as garlic, echinacea and cat's claw. These minerals all may have a role in boosting white blood cell count.
Eat medicinal mushrooms, such as Coriolis, Cordyceps or Ganoderma. Sometimes you can find these particular mushrooms dry, they are mostly sold in the U.S. in powder or capsule form.
your hubby will be much happier, haha, just a little joke,hope your hubby gets better very soon!
Have a big hug!0 -
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/96363.cfmErinb said:He still has a slight fever
He still has a slight fever on and off. I gave him tylenol then motrin and later on today he will go back to the hospital to get more IV antibiotics. They don't like to admit their cancer patients since they can catch something worse in a hospital.
We'll see what the oncologist says later this week. He wasn't on call and it was just an ER doc consulting with another oncologist. I'll let you guys know what is going on with his port & future treatment later this week. He used to get Nueslata but the doc didn't think he would need it on this treatment. He's still on CPT 11, Avastin and Erbitux-why wouldn't he need it? With him being a teacher, he is around kids all of the time and can't help being exposed. I am glad he has a great attitude. I don't know if I would.
As for the anti-oxidants I was told by the integrative doctor there haven't been enough studies to prove that chemo doesn't work as effectively with them and it is more important to keep your body healthy. What the doctor prescribed for him isn't going to have an effect on how the chemo works-but then again it is not keeping his body from getting low WBC either.I will be interested to look at the site from MSK. Thank you.
Erin
Use of herbs, supplements - MSK lecture by Kathleen Wesa, MD (Integrative Medicine) She makes very interesting points that explain why it is inadvisable to take high levels on anti-oxidants during chemo/rads.
I have an appt with her for Nov. 10. She's conducting a study on Vit. D and stage 4 Colon cancer. I'm seeing her as a private patient because I can't get my vit D levels to normal, and as my cancer is appendix, not colon, I don't qualify for the study.0 -
One point that I thought was iffy...abrub said:http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/96363.cfm
Use of herbs, supplements - MSK lecture by Kathleen Wesa, MD (Integrative Medicine) She makes very interesting points that explain why it is inadvisable to take high levels on anti-oxidants during chemo/rads.
I have an appt with her for Nov. 10. She's conducting a study on Vit. D and stage 4 Colon cancer. I'm seeing her as a private patient because I can't get my vit D levels to normal, and as my cancer is appendix, not colon, I don't qualify for the study.
QUOTE """As for the anti-oxidants I was told by the integrative doctor there haven't been enough studies to prove that chemo doesn't work as effectively with them and it is more important to keep your body healthy.""" UNQUOTE.....
Its not for argument sake but isn't an intergrative medical Dr consistant with TCM and not chemotherapy...To me it would be like asking an Oncologists brother if he was a good pick to choose from..Or on the other hand asking an Oncologist his take on TCM..I think I would take both TCM and Western Meds and weigh them out. I am not suggesting to remove either one from treatment regimen, but only to assure what is necessary and what is not.....or maybe just move him to a completely different town and hospital...I think that treatment overload may have set in and it could be a good thing to dismiss it all and start fresh....completely fresh......But, thats just me, I know it will work out....Love and Hope for you both......Clift0 -
Thinking of both of you
Don't get discouraged. I'm sorry that he has been feeling ill. You are in my thoughts and prayers.
Kim0 -
WBC
Erin,
I am 52, with stage 4 disease. I just finished 24 weeks of Folfox w/avastin.
I followed my doctors orders and stayed away from multi vitamins, I also used Muscle Milk every morning in my coffee, and several times during the month in a shake with lots of peanut butter. Other than that I ate what I wanted, sweets, fats, fried, whatever. The result: my blood counts stayed in the normal range for the entire 24 weeks, my tumors shrunk by over 80%, and I gained about 20 pounds.
The problem is that this is a personal story, not a statistical study. I am afraid of (and angry with) anyone who promises me a cure if I just follow their diet, or take their herbs, all for just a small fee. There is a whole industry designed to separate cancer patients and their families from their money, some well meaning, some just outright frauds.
My advice, work closely with your Oncologist, get a second opinion at a major cancer hospital, and look into clinical trials.
All the best to you and your husband, I hope you both see this through to a happy outcome.0 -
Hmmm...Buckwirth said:WBC
Erin,
I am 52, with stage 4 disease. I just finished 24 weeks of Folfox w/avastin.
I followed my doctors orders and stayed away from multi vitamins, I also used Muscle Milk every morning in my coffee, and several times during the month in a shake with lots of peanut butter. Other than that I ate what I wanted, sweets, fats, fried, whatever. The result: my blood counts stayed in the normal range for the entire 24 weeks, my tumors shrunk by over 80%, and I gained about 20 pounds.
The problem is that this is a personal story, not a statistical study. I am afraid of (and angry with) anyone who promises me a cure if I just follow their diet, or take their herbs, all for just a small fee. There is a whole industry designed to separate cancer patients and their families from their money, some well meaning, some just outright frauds.
My advice, work closely with your Oncologist, get a second opinion at a major cancer hospital, and look into clinical trials.
All the best to you and your husband, I hope you both see this through to a happy outcome.
Re:
"I am afraid of (and angry with) anyone who promises me a cure if
I just follow their diet, or take their herbs, all for just a small fee. "
How about:
"Take our toxic, carcinogenic chemicals if you want to live, because if
you don't, your cancer will probably kill you. And it will only cost your
insurance company hundreds of thousands of dollars a month!"
Yeah, that's better!
(they do give a guarantee, right?)
(good grief)
John0 -
your point of view is soJohn23 said:Hmmm...
Re:
"I am afraid of (and angry with) anyone who promises me a cure if
I just follow their diet, or take their herbs, all for just a small fee. "
How about:
"Take our toxic, carcinogenic chemicals if you want to live, because if
you don't, your cancer will probably kill you. And it will only cost your
insurance company hundreds of thousands of dollars a month!"
Yeah, that's better!
(they do give a guarantee, right?)
(good grief)
John
your point of view is so grossly slanted towards TCM that all other treatments by western med is wrong, bad, ineffective, a waste of money and time, and plain foolish. its not only an extreme view but has the sound of someone making a mockery of both the current medical system here in US and its DR and team of med professionals.0 -
John23John23 said:Hmmm...
Re:
"I am afraid of (and angry with) anyone who promises me a cure if
I just follow their diet, or take their herbs, all for just a small fee. "
How about:
"Take our toxic, carcinogenic chemicals if you want to live, because if
you don't, your cancer will probably kill you. And it will only cost your
insurance company hundreds of thousands of dollars a month!"
Yeah, that's better!
(they do give a guarantee, right?)
(good grief)
John
Wow.
For stage 4 western medicine does not promise a cure, just the chance of a few extra months or years. My anger is towards those who falsely promise a cure, even if their intentions are good.
You are a fan of TCM, and I hope it does well for you. I will take my chances with science, and I understand that I could live 6 months or 10 years on the bell curve that these treatments present. What I will not do is follow the path of Steve McQueen.0 -
Buckwirth-Buckwirth said:John23
Wow.
For stage 4 western medicine does not promise a cure, just the chance of a few extra months or years. My anger is towards those who falsely promise a cure, even if their intentions are good.
You are a fan of TCM, and I hope it does well for you. I will take my chances with science, and I understand that I could live 6 months or 10 years on the bell curve that these treatments present. What I will not do is follow the path of Steve McQueen.
Re:
"My anger is towards those who falsely promise a cure, even if their intentions are good."
I take it you include western medicine practitioners as well?
I do not know of any TCM practitioner that claims to "cure" cancer.
In fact, I have mentioned many, many times in many, many other posts,
that if -any- physician tells you they can "cure cancer", head into the
opposite direction!
TCM is a science that's been around for thousands of years, and
has been used by billions upon billions of people for that entire time.
It is practiced in most Asian (and other) countries along side
western medicine. It can be used alone, or as an adjunct for
medical care. To cast it aside as "just so much BS" and other
individuals may choose to do, is not conducive to intelligent thinking.
Many cancer research institutions are now exploring the methods
used by the science of TCM, and are finally recognizing the validity
of the science (I posted an M.D. Anderson report regarding such
matters, on another thread).
If you've seriously read any of my posts, you would realize that
I do not suggest that "chemo is no good", but only that chemo
has it's place in it's fight to kill cancer.
There has been a terrible abuse of the administration of chemotherapy;
it is being prescribed to "mop up" cancer cells where they can not be
identified as cancer cells.
There has been an inordinate, if not dishonest, application of chemical therapy,
in cases where it is known and accepted that it will not do any good at all.
You can't use a colorectal "chemo" for brain cancer, lung cancer, and multiple
types of cancers - so how can it be expected to locate and kill those un-identified
cells en masse? It can't. Yet patients are being told that it will help to save them.
Is that any different than selling the notion that Apricot seeds will kill cancer?
TCM isn't about "Apricot seeds", it's about restoring the body; making it
well enough to battle it's ills without the use of toxic chemicals . It's about
restoring and bolstering the immune system, in an effort to thwart cancer,
and the ramifications of cancer.
Those that wish to blindly follow western medicine without questioning
the validity of treatments, have my sympathy. There is an inner instinct for
survival within each of us; it is when we stop listening to it, and disregard
what's been given to us when our life began.... that we choose to fail.
There are options to Chemo and Radiation, within reason. There is
a time for emergency procedures, and a time to rebuild and rejuvenate.
It's knowing and accepting the difference, that can save your life.
Better health to you!
John0 -
John, can i bring up a pointJohn23 said:Buckwirth-
Re:
"My anger is towards those who falsely promise a cure, even if their intentions are good."
I take it you include western medicine practitioners as well?
I do not know of any TCM practitioner that claims to "cure" cancer.
In fact, I have mentioned many, many times in many, many other posts,
that if -any- physician tells you they can "cure cancer", head into the
opposite direction!
TCM is a science that's been around for thousands of years, and
has been used by billions upon billions of people for that entire time.
It is practiced in most Asian (and other) countries along side
western medicine. It can be used alone, or as an adjunct for
medical care. To cast it aside as "just so much BS" and other
individuals may choose to do, is not conducive to intelligent thinking.
Many cancer research institutions are now exploring the methods
used by the science of TCM, and are finally recognizing the validity
of the science (I posted an M.D. Anderson report regarding such
matters, on another thread).
If you've seriously read any of my posts, you would realize that
I do not suggest that "chemo is no good", but only that chemo
has it's place in it's fight to kill cancer.
There has been a terrible abuse of the administration of chemotherapy;
it is being prescribed to "mop up" cancer cells where they can not be
identified as cancer cells.
There has been an inordinate, if not dishonest, application of chemical therapy,
in cases where it is known and accepted that it will not do any good at all.
You can't use a colorectal "chemo" for brain cancer, lung cancer, and multiple
types of cancers - so how can it be expected to locate and kill those un-identified
cells en masse? It can't. Yet patients are being told that it will help to save them.
Is that any different than selling the notion that Apricot seeds will kill cancer?
TCM isn't about "Apricot seeds", it's about restoring the body; making it
well enough to battle it's ills without the use of toxic chemicals . It's about
restoring and bolstering the immune system, in an effort to thwart cancer,
and the ramifications of cancer.
Those that wish to blindly follow western medicine without questioning
the validity of treatments, have my sympathy. There is an inner instinct for
survival within each of us; it is when we stop listening to it, and disregard
what's been given to us when our life began.... that we choose to fail.
There are options to Chemo and Radiation, within reason. There is
a time for emergency procedures, and a time to rebuild and rejuvenate.
It's knowing and accepting the difference, that can save your life.
Better health to you!
John
John, can i bring up a point on the statement below and also say thank you for bringing up another option other than chemical that cancer patients can look into.
"There has been a terrible abuse of the administration of chemotherapy;
it is being prescribed to "mop up" cancer cells where they can not be
identified as cancer cells."
I was dx with non seminoma embryonal stage 3 (highest stage for this type of cancer) , grade 3 cancer in Feb 2008, the same cancer that Lance Armstrong had. In March of 2008, i had an orchiectomy (a type of surgery) to remove the 7 cm tumor and surrounding regional tissue. I then had lab work, tumor markers tests, and both cat and pet scans on Apr 28 2008. All the results were normal and scans were clean (NED) and I felt great.
My Urologist sent me to a med onc anyway and on June 10 2008, I had my appt. He highly recommended i start 4 rds of chemo (20 treatments) because of the highly aggressive type of cancer I had and for any microscopic cancer cells. The reason he wasnt more insistent on me beginning treatment was i was already on 3 immunosuppressant meds for an organ transplant i had in june 2004 and the combination of chemo and anti rejection meds was going to be even more risky to my immune system. We both agreed to monitor closely with blood work monthly and scans every 2 months.
I came back end of August 2008 (2 mo later) for cat scan and blood work as scheduled. After I was done with getting the cat scan, i got home and in about 2 hours I was called by the DR to make an appt to see him in next few days. When i asked what the reason was, he said the cancer has recurred and this time it metastatised to several lymph nodes, into my lungs, and its next route was pointing for my liver and then brain. I started my chemo treatments within the next 2 weeks from that day. The chemo meds i was on was cisplatin, etoposide, and bleomycin 5 days a week, then 2 off. I would have finished my treatments in 7 weeks but it took 10 weeks because in treatment #6 of #20, i suffered a heart attack after that days treatment and was admitted to Intensive Care for a week. Two weeks later i resumed my chemo treatments as i had 14 left. I went on to complete the rest of the treatments and all scans since Jan 2009 to present show remission.
I asked my DR what my chances would be for the 5 yr survival rate if i had started chemo initially (late july 2008 instead of late Sept 2008. He and another DR said in July my chances were over 90%, in Sept 65%. In 4 months, from late April to late August 2008, i went from no identified cancer cells to stage 3 and in nodes, lungs and heading towards liver.
I was lucky as the type of cancer I had, while highly aggressive, was also highly treatable, even in the late stages. The chemo I had came with limits to the number of treatments I could get. Well, I hit those limits when I completed my treatments. If i still had tumors after those treatments were done, I had 2 options; die from cancer or go more rounds of chemo in what could have been deadly as well.
I learned two lessons. The first was from my journey as a cancer survivor. It taught me what we dont see (thru blood tests, scans & symptoms) can become even more concerning and important to our chances of survival then what we do see.
And the second thing I learned was to be more open minded to other types of cancer treatments that im not familiar with like what is used in Asia. John, thank you for sharing another option to the options we already know of. The two options i would have had if my treatment for cancer didnt work would have been frightening
Heart of Soul Steve0
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