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The Stone Age

Shayenne's picture
Shayenne
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This might be a strange question, but recently, my oldest daughter was saved. She was agnostic at most, and since hanging out alot with her boyfriend and his family, who are christians, she had alot of questions of course, and I was happy to learn she wanted to start going to his church and learning about God, and having some questions answered.

But the one thing on her mind are the dinosaurs. I know this is strange, and I really don't have answers with this one, but why aren't they in the bible?? I know it was b.c., before christ, but if God was always around, and always will be around, why is there no mention about what it was like before christ, even though God was around. She wants to know what exactly happened...did God make them, did he destroy them, why is this part of life not mentioned in the bible. I have no clue how to answer her questions, I do believe in a creator, and there is an afterlife, I was raised Catholic, but what are your theories on how the dinosaurs came about and what God's role was with them???

Hugsss!
~Donna

Marcia527's picture
Marcia527
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I have a theory but I know it differs from some so don't feel like fighting today. I don't think it matters anyway.

Shayenne's picture
Shayenne
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..I didn't think this would start any fights, and to my daughter it seems to matter.

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geotina
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You crack me up, and I might add, just at the right time. You have a knack/gift for that. Anyway, only thing I can come up with is they were extinct before man and there was nobody around to write about them or if man was around then he didn't know how to write or document their history. Its the unknown, kinda like cancer, it is the unknown that plays in our minds and it is the unknown we want answers to. Does this make any sense?

Hugs - Tina

Shayenne's picture
Shayenne
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Yep! it does make sense to me as well, I think what my daughter is looking for is if God was actually around then, or if there was some kind of God then who made the dinosaurs, and even cavemen, I don't even know why she is asking these sort of things, but I have no clue how to answer, and thanks Marcia, of course I care what ya think, and thanks for helping, I'll just tell her to google it instead of wanting to talk about it to me lol...

Hugsss!
~Donna

Marcia527's picture
Marcia527
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Sorry. If you want the christian answer, google 'dinosaurs bible' and you'll get a lot of answers. One is http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_are_dinosaurs_not_mentioned_in_the_Bible

I don't think it matters what I think.

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AKAngel
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It's rare that I'd refer a person to a fiction writer for an answer but, in this case it's a way to merge science with religion....Piers Antony wrote a series about the Incarnations of Immortality, about living personifications of Death, Fate, Time, War, Nature, the Devil, and God. But the book that gave me perspective was "And Eternity..." Now you don't have to read all the series, but sometimes it helps, and this book is the last in it, but the important point was this...it is our perspective as living, thinking humans that clutters that fact of faith and creation. To the Lord, 6 days of creation and 70 billion years are as one...His one day of creation could have been 6 million years, because NO ONE can actually know the perspective of God. So when we as humans say He took 6 days, because we only have our perspective of time and its relavence, we take it literally as 6 days. When the Bible in its infantcy was being written, they hadn't even discovered that the world was round, let alone how many species were out there...so how could they say specifically what all God created? They couldn't, even with the Divine will guiding their hands. They weren't capable of that level of understanding...so we've grown over the many centuries, and while our level of understanding has grown, there is still a lot for us to learn. The best that we can do though, is take some things as a matter of faith. If you believe that God created the world and all in it..just believe it, stop asking why and where and how come. As was asked of Job, 'Were you there when I created the world?' (paraphrasing)
Hope that helps.....

Shayenne's picture
Shayenne
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..To tell a 19 year old to just have faith, they just look at me with 2 heads, you know, they all just want an explanation for everything. But thanks your your reply, I'm asking more this for my daughter, not me, I have faith, I don't need to see to believe, but some kids questions just want some kind of answer, and now she even has my 15 year old asking about it...she makes things so complicated haha...she confuses me.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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I decided to delete what I wrote since it would not have helped you in any way.

-phil

I had to add something to this discussion

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dianetavegia
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Job 40:15 "Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; He eats grass like an ox. 16 See now, his strength is in his hips, And his power is in his stomach muscles. 17 He moves his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. 18 His bones are like beams of bronze, His ribs like bars of iron. 19 He is the first of the ways of God; Only He who made him can bring near His sword. 20 Surely the mountains yield food for him, And all the beasts of the field play there. 21 He lies under the lotus trees, In a covert of reeds and marsh. 22 The lotus trees cover him with their shade; The willows by the brook surround him. 23 Indeed the river may rage, Yet he is not disturbed; He is confident, though the Jordan gushes into his mouth, 24 Though he takes it in his eyes, Or one pierces his nose with a snare.

The Great Behemoth ate grass and has a tail the size of a cedar tree. I love Answers in Genesis. Here's a link to a page that should help a lot!

Dinosaurs and the Bible: Click Here

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PhillieG
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Religion divorced itself from science a few hundred years ago. It's a shame because religion WAS the science of it's day. Once man started to provide true answers to things that until then were considered unknowable like that the earth revolved around the sun, not the other way around. Those who went against the church's word were killed or thrown in jail.

Like when Galileo Galilei, whom the Inquisition had convicted of heresy in 1633 for teaching that the Earth goes around the sun, spent years in exile.

So, it is pointless to try to look for answers about dinosaurs in a book like the bible. The bible is a collection of stories that while they often offer good ideas about how to treat other (except when they call for the killing of homosexuals and stuff like that) is is hardly a book that has anything to do with science. So it looks like it comes down to believing that the world is only 6000 years old or believing that is is billions of years old. You can't have it both ways

The linked article writes this:
"The story we have all heard from movies, television, newspapers, and most magazines and textbooks is that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. According to evolutionists, the dinosaurs “ruled the Earth” for 140 million years, dying out about 65 million years ago. However, scientists do not dig up anything labeled with those ages. They only uncover dead dinosaurs (i.e., their bones), and their bones do not have labels attached telling how old they are. The idea of millions of years of evolution is just the evolutionists’ story about the past.(scientists can carbon-date bones to see how old they are) No scientist was there to see the dinosaurs live through this supposed dinosaur age. In fact, there is no proof whatsoever that the world and its fossil layers are millions of years old. No scientist observed dinosaurs die. Scientists only find the bones in the here and now, and because many of them are evolutionists, they try to fit the story of the dinosaurs into their view.
Other scientists, called creation scientists, have a different idea about when dinosaurs lived. They believe they can solve any of the supposed dinosaur mysteries and show how the evidence fits wonderfully with their ideas about the past, beliefs that come from the Bible.

The Bible, God’s very special book (or collection of books, really), claims that each writer was supernaturally inspired to write exactly what the Creator of all things wanted him to write down for us so that we can know where we (and dinosaurs) came from, why we are here, and what our future will be.(no one who is alive today saw this so how do we know it's true???) The first book in the Bible—Genesis—teaches us many things about how the universe and life came into existence. Genesis tells us that God created everything—the Earth, stars, sun, moon, plants, animals, and the first two people.

Although the Bible does not tell us exactly how long ago it was that God made the world and its creatures, we can make a good estimate of the date of creation by reading through the Bible and noting some interesting passages:

God made everything in six days. He did this, by the way, to set a pattern for mankind, which has become our seven day week (as described in Exodus 20:11). God worked for six days and rested for one, as a model for us. Furthermore, Bible scholars will tell you that the Hebrew word for day used in Genesis 1, can only mean an ordinary day in this context.

We are told God created the first man and woman—Adam and Eve—on Day Six. Many facts about when their children and their children’s children were born are given in Genesis. These genealogies are recorded throughout the Old Testament, up until the time of Christ. They certainly were not chronologies lasting millions of years.(so we are all inbred and came from 2 people?)

As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years."

In the words of Joseph Campbell Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.

Hondo's picture
Hondo
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There are a few places that talk about Leviathan a dragon and it say that God created him. The reason is does not say anymore on the subject is because the Bible is not a book about what God created but who he created and why so you will not find much about dinosaurs in it. After you passed Genesis the 10th chapter the Bible is all about God trying to lead a world of people back to him that refused his mercy and love, even when He sent his Son all we did was to kill him.

Shayenne's picture
Shayenne
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...All for taking the time to post, that was a great one Phil, I do believe in dinosaurs being here, and yes, that's when I got confused and fed up with the Catholics way actually, and always questioned how a loving God would damn Homosexuals, I have alot of gay friends, and I be darned to think these loving people would go to hell because they lay down with man, whatever...

I'm going to have my daughter come read these posts tomorrow, so I can show her some theories, and go to the websites, it's nice for me to know she now has changed her views, and wants to know more, better late then never I believe lol ;)

Hugsss!
~Donna

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PhillieG
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What's always worked for when people don't know the answer is to say that's it's "part of the mystery of life". One can not realistically look at the question and believe the answer from that web page and not find it totally absurd.

I do think religion has an important place in the world, it's just that it has not changed in thousands of years while (most) of the human race is aware that science does exist and has been able to provide us with answers to the dinosaur question and many, many more questions.

Why are there so many races of humans is we all came from Adam and Eve?
It's a moral about having honor for your parents and mostly to the man upstairs. Anger Him and he'll make us smart as punishment! We all want to believe that when we die we are reunited with our loved ones and with our "Father". It's our nature to want that, that's why the stories were written by man that way.

There is an interesting book out by Laura Miller(?) about Heaven and how it is looked at and changed over the years. It used to be thought of as a place with angels on clouds with harps and peace and love, now it is (to many) a place where we can go and eat all of the food we want and not get fat. We. as humans (or as Americans at least) have certainly changed what is important to us.

It comes back to this for me and others.
In the words of Joseph Campbell Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. I think there is so much to be gained from looking at the myths that the religions present us. It's been very important to the human race but I think one needs to keep it in perspective. It would be like having our doctors use medical books from the Dark Ages to treat our cancer. Maybe it was relevant then but it's not now.

It's an interesting question Donna, I do not ever see me having to deal with this but it's an interesting question.
-phil

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dianetavegia
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Leviathan was a fire breathing animal and very interesting. He must have been huge because Job and other writers talked about being unable to capture or control him.

God does not hate homosexuals! God hates any sin and all sin is the same. In fact, in James 2:10 it says whoever keeps all the law yet sins in one area, he is just as guilty as if he'd broken all the commandments. I'm not perfect and am just thankful that my sin penalty was paid at Calvary!

Job 41:7-34 7 Could you shoot him full of arrows like a pin cushion, or drive harpoons into his huge head? 8 If you so much as lay a hand on him, you won't live to tell the story. 9 What hope would you have with such a creature? Why, one look at him would do you in! 10 If you can't hold your own against his glowering visage, how, then, do you expect to stand up to me? 11 Who could confront me and get by with it? I'm in charge of all this - I run this universe! 12 "But I've more to say about Leviathan, the sea beast, his enormous bulk, his beautiful shape. 13 Who would even dream of piercing that tough skin or putting those jaws into bit and bridle? 14 And who would dare knock at the door of his mouth filled with row upon row of fierce teeth? 15 His pride is invincible; nothing can make a dent in that pride. 16 Nothing can get through that proud skin - impervious to weapons and weather, 17 The thickest and toughest of hides, impenetrable! 18 "He snorts and the world lights up with fire, he blinks and the dawn breaks. 19 Comets pour out of his mouth, fireworks arc and branch. 20 Smoke erupts from his nostrils like steam from a boiling pot. 21 He blows and fires blaze; flames of fire stream from his mouth. 22 All muscle he is - sheer and seamless muscle. To meet him is to dance with death. 23 Sinewy and lithe, there's not a soft spot in his entire body - 24 As tough inside as out, rock-hard, invulnerable. 25 Even angels run for cover when he surfaces, cowering before his tail-thrashing turbulence. 26 Javelins bounce harmlessly off his hide, harpoons ricochet wildly. 27 Iron bars are so much straw to him, bronze weapons beneath notice. 28 Arrows don't even make him blink; bullets make no more impression than raindrops. 29 A battle ax is nothing but a splinter of kindling; he treats a brandished harpoon as a joke. 30 His belly is armor-plated, inexorable - unstoppable as a barge. 31 He roils deep ocean the way you'd boil water, he whips the sea like you'd whip an egg into batter. 32 With a luminous trail stretching out behind him, you might think Ocean had grown a gray beard! 33 There's nothing on this earth quite like him, not an ounce of fear in that creature! 34 He surveys all the high and mighty - king of the ocean, king of the deep!"

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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That is what many things are Babs, I agree with you. Mankind does not know everything by any stretch of the imagination.

Now try to imagine what it must have been like living 2000-4000 years ago. Did mankind know anything about the stars and even our own sun? The lunar eclipses or meteor showers? Do you think that they took them as signs from above that someone was pleased or angry with them? Many cultures had sacrifices, both human and animal, to try to bring rain, stop rain, stop a volcano from erupting. Pretty much to satisfy anything they do not understand. Many things that occur in nature were not explainable at all back then. I think most of us know that these are common natural occurrences and have nothing to do with one's behavior (except Pat Robertson, and others I'm sure, who believe Haiti was hit with an earthquake because of the deal it made with the Devil years ago).

So ask yourself this, do you think it was easier then to explain mysteries of mature with science which didn't even exist or with saying that something called God caused it?

To get back to the dinosaurs in the bible website, they mention how scientists were not around to see dinosaurs and that bones don't come with labels. They discount science and carbon dating which is rather accurate. But who has seen God? With the exception of people hearing voices I think he's been rather scarce. So to use that websites logic (and I use the word logic VERY loosely) how do we know God exists? There's no label on him, no one has seen him? Some people claim to hear or see him after fasting for 40 days. I think you'd see a lot of things after not eating for 40 days. I've never seen France so again, using that "logic" does France exist??? To even think that the earth is 6000 years old is absurd at best.

We are just babes in the woods Babs, there is so much we do not know. But there is also so much we do know and to get back to the topic of the thread, we know dinosaurs walked the earth tens to hundreds of millions of years ago.

Blind faith must be great, it takes knowledge and common sense and just throws them out the window.

Did a series of events happen billion of years ago that started this thing we call the universe? Yes. Who did it? Don't know but I doubt it was some Old man who looks like us (or we like him) and that it was 6 thousand years ago.

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PhillieG
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I think of the movie the DaVinci Code when Tom Hank's character says near the end of the movie that faith is a gift he has not yet received. I've always liked Joseph Campbell and how he views God. One quote of his that I like and makes sense to me is this "God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."

The "issues" I have are not with how everything was created so much, it's with religion(s). I believe, like others do on this site, that you don't need the church and it's middle men to get by. I think there are many people who believe in God and go to church yet believe in evolution. I suppose that technically that may not be kosher.

To me, it's much more important HOW you lead your life than the label you apply to yourself. There are many out there who say that they are one thing yet do not act like what they claim to be at all. It is doubtful they even see it.

Obviously we all got here somehow. The universe is an incredible place. Whenever I see photos taken by the Hubble telescope of galaxies giving "birth" to stars it blows me away.

I don't feel like you are trying to convince me of believing in anything. I do think I am asking people to look at certain things we were taught as metaphors and not to take things that were written or described thousands of years ago as fact.

Life's a mystery, I guess in the end we all find out what happens.
be well

Marcia527's picture
Marcia527
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I really think everybody has to find the answer themselves. If someone said they saw God no one would believe it except that person.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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You are right, we all have to decide or find out for ourselves. It seems to me that there is less free thinking with regard to this though. But of course that is everyone's free choice. I sometimes have discussions similar to some of the ones I've had on here but it is more often with people who are either like-minded or ones who feel there COULD be other possibilities. Other than on here, I do not think I know anyone who proclaims to know the answers.

I did have a 3rd grade lay teacher in catholic school who said she saw God in her garden. We did think she was nuts. She also told us that some nasty kid once took a host and didn't swallow it at communion and instead stuck a knife in it and it started to bleed. One last thing I remember about her was that she had a talking dog too.
Was she nuts?

Marcia527's picture
Marcia527
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"Was she nuts?"

1. Was she normal other times? (I had a couple friends in high school who said they were from Mars-they were not nuts but stuck to their story)
2. Did she say things to make a point or promote not doing what she considered sinful? (Some people wrote fables to teach morals)
3. Did she have a humongous sense of humor? (sometimes we say things because it's funny)
4. Did you try talking to her dog? (I did see on Funniest Videos once a dog who could say 'I love you')
5. Was this wafer that was stuck with a knife in the child's hand at the time?

Who determines if we are nuts? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Or I like the cake quote better. Ever see What About Bob? I love that movie.

I forgot to add that maybe she really did see God. Strange things have been known to happen.

geraldo1
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From your posting I would assume you are an Aetheist. I admit I am, for that is the only way to approach the problems this site is discussing. I became agnostic at about 13 and after military and college, majoring in Biology, at 25 became a confirmed Aetheist. Now at 76, watching the atrocities in the World (MOST caused by RELIGIOUS zealots)I am glad I did. I would hate to have an after life with someone I must adore or He,She,It, will smite me or worse yet send me to Hell,

I have incurable Esophageal cancer. I have had it for close to 3 years. I am at a normal dying age. I have had a very good life more, unique than most and fortunate to have good genes. I know what(not exactly when)I will die from. I don't have to concern myself about what I can eat or drink or smoke because I may get "CANCER".

I would not have advertised my lack of religious belief earlier in life for fear of joblessness or worse yet having one of the religious nuts injuring or killing me and/or my family.

I have briefly discussed a theory with4 of my doctors, which I don't believe is original, that basically says the cancer cell was one of first true surviving cells at the period when life began. They didn't say it wasn't quite possible.

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PhillieG
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Judging from how the thread progressed it looks like you are. I consider myself an agnostic but I lean more toward being an atheist. Sort of like how I'm registered as an independent but I highly doubt if I would ever vote for a republican. It would have to be one who is nothing like most of the ones who get involved in public service. I too dislike religious zealots as much as you do it seems. Belief is an interesting thing. Once you believe in something (even if it's not believing in a Him, Her, or It) it seems so natural to a person that this is how things are and hard to see how others who do believe in all of the religious stuff don't get it. They must feel the same way about people like me.

I think it depends more now where you live that can give you the freedom to be who you are. If one lives in the bible belt for example, being an atheist would tend to stand out more and I think one could run into "problems". I live 50 miles outside of NYC so people tend to care less about who or what you are. Thank/praise _____ for that! Honestly, the rare times that the topic of what a person's belief seems to come up is when it's been posted on here in areas that are public and should be dealing with a person's illness, not their faith. I even saw where someone was posting what religion their doctor was! I'm more concerned with how knowledgeable my doctors are, not what their faith (if any) is. But again, it's me and it's the area I live in. I think around here at least people would say get a Jewish doctor...or is that a Jewish lawyer and a Hindu doctor?

Now that I cleared that up

That's an interesting theory. Cancer cells are rather hearty MF-ers so I would not be shocked if they were some of the first cells/life forms that evolved and survived. That is of course dependent on whether you believe in evolution or not. A web page that was linked to from this thread proved that the earth is only 6000 years old and that dinosaurs and man walked the earth at the same time. I guess it shoots that theory to hell...

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PhillieG
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Actions speak louder than words. It's great that you were able to help him out when he needed the help. That's a very democratic trait (I'm pulling your leg!). It's a very KIND trait that belongs to no party or religion.
We all come into this world the same way and leave the same way and we all do different things in between.
Religion and politics, the 2 taboos of conversation.

Marcia527's picture
Marcia527
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shhhhh.

Marcia527's picture
Marcia527
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I believe you can't stereotype people. We are individuals and not everyone in the same group will think exactly alike. They might have common goals or believe mostly the same (talking about people attending churches) or they wouldn't continue to attend. There is also some churches that split into two because groups disagree. I've seen this happen.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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if you can't stereotype people then how are you supposed to make blanket statements about groups of people????
Of course I am (mostly) kidding
;-)
You have to admit, while it can not be said for everyone at all times, stereotypes don't just come out of thin air.

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dianetavegia
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We had two precious older ladies (60's??) join our church this past Sunday. They are longterm partners and have been attending our church for several years. They dress in (men's) suits but with ladies jewelry and very short men's haircuts. They are greatly loved and are a wonderful asset to our church!! Southern Baptist Church in a tiny town in Georgia.

I've taught Sunday School and worked with the youth for about 40 years now. Same here!

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (Leviticus 20:13).

It's nice to see that people can accept people for who they are but since people like to quote the bible, that is a passage from it. Maybe we can pick and choose what we want to follow?

dianetavegia's picture
dianetavegia
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Phil, that was an old testament law and those laws also included stoning to death of a son who wouldn't behave or a woman caught having sex outside of marriage. No one could touch a dead person (Jesus broke that law several times) or be around a woman having her period (the woman with the issue of blood for 12 years touched Jesus and he healed her).

Sin is sin... and God sees all sins the same. There is no big sin/ white lie. God sees the heart.

Marcia527's picture
Marcia527
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to say what I think...I don't believe that dinosaurs lived at the same time as people did on earth so any mention of them in the bible must be interpreted that way by some human. Or added to. Anybody quoting scripture doesn't prove anything to me. I've heard it before and seen how some people twist it to say what they want. I've seen where a pastor said it's sinful to watch tv, wear jewelry (even wedding bands), listen to other churches doctrine or wear short hair for women and long for men. I could go on. They got all this from scripture. I don't believe in it. I'd rather skip the middle man and go directly to the source.

dianetavegia's picture
dianetavegia
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Those 'preachers' were not very well educated and taking things out of context. The mention of short hair on women was because of the custom of temple prostitutes cutting their hair very short and the long haired male prostitutes (yep) appearing 'female' for the homosexual temple priests. Jesus was a Nazarene and didn't cut his hair.

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CanadaSue
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I guess those that do not believe what your church preaches, must also believe that your paster is not well educated or they that he also takes things out of context.I also prefer to go to the source, and cut out the middleman!

Balentine's picture
Balentine
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This is my belief and all of my hope and salvation. (I know some may not agree...these are my opinions and beliefs). I have no doubts about my God and Savior. He has always been and always will be. It comes down to one thing and one thing alone....either you believe the bible or you don't. No one can force it on you....only the Holy Spirit can draw you and reveal to you what is unseen in the natural realm. God is all knowing...that is why He is God and we are not....that is why we cannot figure everything out...we are not supposed to be able to. We are imperfect...but God is perfect. This is why he created us the way he did...to have a soul that cries out for a spirtual connection that can only be satisfied by a relationship with Jesus Christ and one by our own will because we want to and hunger and thirst for that relationship with Him....to have a dependence on Him for everything that we need and know that everything we have comes from Him. All things were created by Him and by His grace and Mercy, He sustains us each and every day with all things that we need. He did not make us gods....he made us dependent on Him...the one true God who created all things through Christ Jesus. Without a relationship with Him, we are lost and will continue to wonder, wander and ask questions that we will never know until we finally see Him face to face. This is what I believe....I know everyone does not agree so please don't be offended. So again, the conclusion is....either you believe what the bible says, or you don't. Jesus states in John 14:6...I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life...no one comes to the Father except through Me. Be blessed.
Lorrie

dasspears
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he did make the dinosaurs!

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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Six thousand years ago.
;-)

dasspears
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What did you finally tell your daughter? Just curious.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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I never heard that one from the Catholics. I found them to be all or nothing. That's an interesting way to look at it. They sound like they were very progressive C.

I also believe that evolution is a fact and find more in common with Native Americans that I have found with any religion.
;-)

dasspears
Posts: 233
Joined: Feb 2009

who just completed her Shaman training! I love the Native American path - smudging,etc. Their view of taking care of the earth is similar to that of the Buddhists.

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