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Freedom of Religion

Hondo's picture
Hondo
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Joined: Apr 2009

We are guaranteed in the Constitution of the United States of American the freedom of religion. This freedom was granted to all people by our forefathers as a way that all mankind could live together in peace and that no one group was better then the other.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Should we be worried about religious groups who are pushing for a Constitutional Convention, I wonder who they are and whose religion do they represent?

I heard it said that our forefathers never menthe for freedom of religion to be freedom from religion.

What do you think?

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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Joined: May 2005

Why wouldn't it be thought that the freedom of religion can also mean the freedom from religion? Without that phrase, it could imply that we MUST choose a religion. That certainly does not invoke a sense of freedom for me.

Personally, I would worry about any group that is pushing anything that can affect the entire country. The thought of a religious group pushing something does worry me unless they are pushing for unconditional World Peace. You asked which group, I know I'm just guessing here but I would imagine that it would be a christian group. I somehow do not see an islamic group doing that. If the religious groups want to push for something for their religion that would not affect everyone then I see no problem with that at all.

Is there a specific event you are referring to Hondo or is this food for thought?

Hondo's picture
Hondo
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Joined: Apr 2009

There is a group pushing for legislation of a Constitution Amendment it is not what they are pushing that worries me its there hidden agenda that does.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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Joined: May 2005

God help us!
(never thought you'd see me write that one I bet!)

THAT is scary. No group, be it religious or anti-religious frightens me when I hear about changing the constitution.

I found this on JewsOnFirst
(Pardon if this offends anyone, the name just cracked me up.)

"On June 30, 2005, all but unnoticed by the major media, one hundred Republican members of Congress introduced an amendment to the Constitution that would permit prayer and religious symbols in public settings. The measure, House Joint Resolution 57, which would effectively cancel out the First Amendment, reads in full:

To secure the people's right to acknowledge God according to the dictates of conscience:
--The people retain the right to pray and to recognize their religious beliefs, heritage, and traditions on public property, including schools.
--The United States and the States shall not establish any official religion nor require any person to join in prayer or religious activity."

I do not think there is a topic that causes so much heated discussion as religion. I'm not saying it's this or that, it's just an observation.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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Joined: May 2005

but this is religion related and it also has to do with legislation and religion.

Gay Marriage. It's a HUGE deal (to many) and the religious argument against it is that it goes against the teachings of the bible. Correct? (or close?) If that is a main reason why they are against it then what about marriage in general. If marriage is such a holy bond between a man and a woman, shouldn't divorce be against the law too using the thinking that marriage is a bond created by God?
Why is one part of it OK and the other not? I know it is not seen in religion that way but I think it's just as valid of an argument. If one is not OK in the eyes of God then the same should be said for the other.

Personally, if two people love each other THAT is what matters. I do not believe that homosexuality is something that can be "cured". There is nothing to cure, that is how some people were made (by guess who if that is your belief)

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5608
Joined: Apr 2009

You bring up a very interesting topic,

Marriage: What you said is so true, if we Christians believe what we teach there would be no Divorce in the Churches. Jesus said out of the hardness of our hearts Moses gave us a document for divorce but from the beginning it was not so Matthew 19:8. For a Christian the Marriage relationship is not just between a Man and a Woman, it is between the Man the Woman and God, with God being at the apex of the relationship and the Man and Woman at the base. As long as we are looking up to God the relationship will last forever, but as soon as we start to look at each other it crumbles and falls in to Divorce.

Gay: I have two brothers who are gay, well one is gay the other is a transvestite, I am not happy with what they are but I do love them both. My oldest brother and his companion have been together for over 40years and have lived happily until last year when his companion passed a way. They never complained about wanting to get married or have a civil union, they were just happy to be together and not have people judge them. My other brother is not so lucky he lives in a place where he is judged and convicted all at the same time for being what he is.

There are abnormalities in mankind, I believe this is because of Sin in our world, How does God view it, He loves the Sinner but hates the Sin and he is the only one who can truly judge in my book.

I think in the Christian community the problem with Gay’s or lesbians is in the using of the word marriage and not Civil Union, I don’t really know why nor do I care, the word Marriage is now become so obscured in our world it just don’t matter.

Just the way I see it

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4659
Joined: May 2005

"There are abnormalities in mankind, I believe this is because of Sin in our world, How does God view it, He loves the Sinner but hates the Sin and he is the only one who can truly judge in my book." Why is Love a sin?

I REALLY disagree with you on this Hondo. True, there are abnormalities in this world. Two headed cows and such but viewing your brothers, one who is gay and one who is a transvestite should not be viewed as abnormalities at all in my opinion.

"My other brother is not so lucky he lives in a place where he is judged and convicted all at the same time for being what he is." You comment "I believe this is because of Sin in our world". Sounds judgmental to me.

I know that is how you see it and I see it differently.

I'm really speechless at best, I think I better leave it at that.

Hondo's picture
Hondo
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Joined: Apr 2009

No Phillieg, I don’t judge them nor would I judge any man, I do love them both very much. In my Christian belief I don’t believe that man was created this way. I believe it was due to Sin in our world that cause stuff like this to happen “abnormalities meaning a defect in the way God design it to be”. I don’t force what I believe on them because I believe they have a freedom to do what they want. We all have a very good relationship with each other and I believe that is what counts the most.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4659
Joined: May 2005

Only you know how things are, I'm sure you DO love them Hondo.
I personally, do not see who/how/what they are as being anything other than who they are. Sin does not come into play for me but that is because I do not believe the bible is the word of God so everything I hear from it I take with a grain of salt. I think there are some good parables on how one can live one's life but I think they are pretty universal across most all faiths. They are not inclusive to Christianity. I know, and respect, your beliefs and I'm not trying to change you. I just don't "buy the whole ball of wax" (what the heck DOES that mean anyway???) as far as the teachings and stories in the bible.

One could say that isn't God perfect? Why would his creations be anything other than perfect? Maybe everything was created by forces of nature which we know is not perfect, things change over time in a quest for perfection of at vest, efficiency and need for change for adaptation?

mariam_11_09's picture
mariam_11_09
Posts: 693
Joined: Nov 2009

I think can be translated to ..God loves the person but not the person's actions. Big difference between the person and his/her actions, at least for me that is.

I do agree with you Phil, that we are not at all in a position to judge although we do. But anyway 'who needs God when you have an opinion'.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4659
Joined: May 2005

but I do not see the sin. There is no harm being done to anyone with homosexuality. People have been born that way since the beginning of time. If one were to take the bible literally, what about Adam and Eve? Their children had to procreate with either their mother or with sisters. On other pages I looked at they said that marrying your sister or cousin wasn't strange back then. It's against the law now.

"Adamson was Adam and Eve's firstborn. He was followed by his sister and Eveson, the second son of Adam and Eve. Eve bore sixty-three children, thirty-two daughters, and thirty-one sons, before the default. When Adam and Eve left the Garden, their family consisted of four generations numbering 1,647 pure-line descendants. They had forty-two children after leaving the Garden besides the two offspring of joint parentage with the mortal stock of Earth."
~ from TruthBook.com

Mariam I'm not sure what this means 'who needs God when you have an opinion'. It's early and sometimes I miss things that are very obvious. I do think if one REALLY DEEPLY believes in God then questions really do not matter because of their unconditional belief.

DennisR
Posts: 148
Joined: Sep 2009

It would probably make more sense to take the word,"sin", out of the context of what Hondo and Mariam are saying. I know more than a few people I've cared about over the years who I admired in every way...except when they cheated on their spouses, or drank themselves into oblivion, or decided to use drugs....others I read about that rob banks, shoot other people, or committ other crimes fall into the same category.

Society doesn't condemn someone for being judgemental when they express disapproval of those acts and punish people for committing them....yet those very acts are also sins in the eyes of the Lord and are Written in the Ten Commandments and numerous places in the Bible.
The point is..that society at large doesn't seem to object to Religious beliefs when the belief tends to add reinforcement of their own beliefs, but object when the same beliefs are applied to themselves.
Why is it we attack condemn one Politician for having an affair with a woman, yet not condemn another for having a homosexual affair, at least not publicly.

I always say, Proof beyond a shadow of a doubt...is a dubious burden placed upon a Jury...I personally have no such burden and am free to believe as I please and exercise my God Given Right to make decisions based upon the values I hold and a personal sense of right and wrong.

grandmafay's picture
grandmafay
Posts: 1610
Joined: Aug 2009

I have been lurking this thread again and always find the posts here interesting. I rarely get into discussions about religion, but I occasionally add my two cents. Not all Christian denominations are the same. Our denomination believes that God is still speaking. Most of us take the Bible seriously, but not literally. We are a big tent, though, and have those who do choose to take it literally. We see our lives as a journey and know that each is on his/her own personal journey of faith. Our little church is a strong community of faith. We care for each other and reach out to others in the community and the world. We try not to judge, but, of course, we do. By the way, our denomination was the first to ordain a black, a woman, and a gay man. Some might call us progressive. Others say we are wishy-washy or very lost. I believe in the power of prayer and felt supported by it throughout my husband's illness and now. My faith is strong. I feel God in my life and truly believe that the love Jesus taught us is "the greatest of these." Fay

Marcia527's picture
Marcia527
Posts: 2731
Joined: Jul 2006

Phil, your post got me looking and I read about Urantia Foundation which I had never heard of. It's interesting but I have doubt in my mind about it. I read what it had to say about it on Wikipedia. I'm not sure I believe in channeling which it sounds like that is how they got the info. I guess it has to happen to the individual to believe it.

I didn't read what your link leads to but wonder how they could know this info about Adam and Eve's children?

Hondo's picture
Hondo
Posts: 5608
Joined: Apr 2009

Interesting but it’s only an opinion of the writer and sounds more like a bed time story or something. The Truth Book I read does not say anything about how many Children Adam & Eve had. But there again I don’t want you think I am judging him because I believe he has the rights to say or print anything he wants whether it is true or not.

Buzzard's picture
Buzzard
Posts: 3073
Joined: Aug 2008

something against man laying with another man ?........I think so....so my thoughts are that homosexuality is against the Bible teachings is it not ?

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4659
Joined: May 2005

I think there are also passages that lead people to believe the earth is 6000 years old too. But aren't people just born that way or do you believe it's an illness that can be cured? I do not think homosexuality is the norm, but that doesn't make them any less of a person and us anymore of a person. If you believe in God, then it's how God made them, correct?

To go back to biblical teachings, isn't fidelity taught in there? And marriage too, that's a sacred union of two people (OK man and woman for the sake of argument). So if marriage is sacred wouldn't divorce be against God's or the Bible's teachings and therefore wrong and/or immoral?

I found this info on divorce and remarriage:
"Many Christians have questions about divorce and remarriage.
Generally speaking, Christians tend to fall into one of four positions on this controversial issue:

Position 1: No Divorce - No Remarriage
Marriage is a covenant agreement, meant for life, therefore it must not be broken under any circumstance; remarriage further violates the covenant and therefore is not permissible.

Position 2: Divorce - But No Remarriage
Divorce, though not God's desire, is sometimes the only alternative when all else has failed. The divorced person must remain unmarried for life thereafter.

Position 3: Divorce - But Remarriage Only In Certain Situations
Divorce, though not God's desire, is sometimes unavoidable. If the grounds for the divorce are biblical, the divorced person can remarry, but only to a believer.

Position 4: Divorce - Remarriage
Divorce, though not God's desire, is also not the unforgivable sin. Regardless of the circumstances, all divorced persons who have repented, should be forgiven and allowed to remarry."

So....there's plenty of things that people do that are frowned upon in the bible.
We are probably ALL guilty of some moral crime in the eyes of the bible which only makes my feelings stronger that it is the word of man used to keep people under the control of the church. Please do NOT get me (all)wrong. There are very many good things that are talked about in the bible jsut as there are many good things mankin has done that has absolutely nothing to do with the bible or religion at all.

As in everything, there are good and bad people in the world. Is homosexuality a sin? Coming from me my answre is meaningless in the contect of relgion or the bible since I do not look upon them as being the word of God (and also if God exists and all of that which I do not know the answers to). There does seem to be teachings in thr bible that many choose to follow and there are many that the same people choose to ignore. Being raised a Roman Catholic, I remmeber that the Pope did not like "buffet catholics" where people would pick and chose what they wish to believe and or follow. It was more of "meal with no substitutions please".

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