When is it ENOUGH; where is the line drawn?

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coug90
coug90 Member Posts: 59
edited March 2014 in Breast Cancer #1
I have a very dear friend who lost her friend, Sue, to Stage 4 Breast Cancer a year ago and she's still really angry about it. OK. That's normal right? But wait. She's not pissed that the cancer won but that she felt her friend didn't fight 'hard enough.' Let me back up a minute...

Sue fought her cancer through 3 battles and over the course of 5+ years. She had multiple disfiguring surgeries followed by HARD CORE chemotherapy and radiation, as well as the 'new' drugs designed to protect us against recurrance. When that didn't work, she was enrolled in clinical studies. Incredibly, this warrior kept her attitude upbeat and tried treatment after treatment as the cancer marched through her body and wreaked havoc on her life. Honestly, I don't know that I would have fought that hard. And yet, my friend feels like Sue didn't DO ENOUGH to stay alive. WHAT?!

My friend, although familiar with cancer, is a wide-eyed, idealistic virgin when it comes to the disease. It's kind of like someone who doesn't have kids giving you advice on how to raise yours. But still, her feelings are her feelings and so, biting hard on my tongue, I asked her what else could Sue have possibly done?

My friend didn't miss a beat. 'Well she should have tried Holistic medicine and natural treatment.' (Note: Please understand that while I don't agree with Holistic tx, I do believe that if YOU believe, the mind can do amazing things.) I think my... doubts? came across my face before I could master it. Instead of attacking the idea of natural healing, I told my friend that treatment is a very intimate and personal choice. What may be right for one, might not be the right way for another; and it is important that you have faith in your tx to make it work at all. At which point my friend pontificated on what 'she would do if she got cancer'. Oh Lord. Was I this arrogant and overbearing before I got dx?

Again, I bit my tongue and told her that before I was dx, I had very distinct ideas on where I would go, what I would do etc. And as I heard that crappy three word sentence - "You have cancer.", all my preconceived ideas evaporated instantaneously.

So I guess my thought or question is, when is enough, ENOUGH? How far would you go and to what expense to family, self and soul to prolong your life? When does quality of life supercede quantity of life? Is there a magic point of equilibrium where those scales undeniably tip out of favor? When is it the doctors responsibility to step back and tell the patient 'no more' (First, do no harm.) - or is it the doctors right to continue to pump more and more drugs into you until you are no longer yourself and unrecognizable?

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  • mmontero38
    mmontero38 Member Posts: 1,510
    #2
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    Hi Coug:
    How very sorry I feel for your friend. I think in a way we were all naive until we had to face the demons ourselves. I think, Sue fought a very courageous and hard battle. Don't know if I would have fought as hard. I think if I would be told that after certain number of treatments the cancer is still there, I would probably say no more and try to enjoy family and friends more before I died and not feeling always sick. I guess, that sometimes, it is better to bite your tongue because unless, you've been there and done it you really don't know how you will act. I think, most drs feel that they have to continue fighting to the end and that's why we need to have our wishes written down so that one of our loved ones or dr can know how far to go with our treatments. Lili
  • 3cbrca
    3cbrca Member Posts: 206
    #3
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    Enough is enough when the patient feels it is so. Boy, I can't stand people who criticize people after they die and comment on how somebody else handled their journey. I' heard someone criticize my sister's handling of certain things when she was dying and I went crazy and told her "when you die you can handle it perfectly, but until you are facing death don't you dare criticize someone who has"! Tell you friend you've had enough. Wow! i can't believe that - I know that loss creates anger, but I just don't get it being directed at the deceased.
    S
  • seof
    seof Member Posts: 819 Member
    #4
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    Wow, this is a tough thing. My Sister died of BC in 2003 after a 6 year battle, like your friend. She was 45 and left a spouse and 4 kids. My Aunt who is like a second Mom to me,is in her 80's, has ovarian cancer...Doc. said chemo could prolong her life by a few months with major discomfort...she opted to live out her days and let cancer take its course. We have had other family members die of various causes. I agree that no one knows what they might do to avoid death, or welcome it and end suffering until it is their turn. I firmly believe it should be the patient's decision, and that everyone who loves the person should spend their energies letting the person know they are loved and supported. When the person is gone, spend your energies remembering the good and pleasant things about the person. If you have anger, direct it at the cause of suffering and what you can do to prevent someone else from suffereing the same way so that your beloved's pain and suffering will not have been to no avail.

    I believe Doctors are generally trained and "hard-wired" to save lives whenever they can. I think many of them see death as something to be avoided at almost any cost. Personally, I think there are fates worse than death, though it is certainly not to be taken lightly.

    As far as how to respond to your friend, maybe you could tell her that you are very sorry that she lost her friend, and you know that people deal with grief in many different ways, but it disturbs you when she blames the deceased. You could tell her that you value your freindship and would like for the two of you to enjoy being together. Maybe the 2 of you could agree to discuss only other subjects when you are together, if she is not able to channel the anger into some positive form.

    I don't know if this is useful or not. seof
  • KathiM
    KathiM Member Posts: 8,028 Member
    #5
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    Wow! What a thought-provoking post!

    First, your friend will hopefully never have to face the choices that cancer brings...her false bravado speaks volumes as to her insecurity...

    I know that when I said 'enough', my doctor listened. She even said "This is to prevent reoccurance, but not by killing the patient!". My heart was going crazy, and I was a physical mess. I stopped #4 Adrimycin/Cytoxin. Regrets? None. My heart still skips a beat every once in a while...but I remain cancer free!

    But quality of life is just as, if not more, important that quantity. Finishing things is a goal, but not asking someone to cling to a miserable life just so the family doesn't have to let go...

    My 2 cents....

    Hugs, Kathi
  • chenheart
    chenheart Member Posts: 5,159
    #6
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    I actually wish I were a "wide-eyed idealistic virgin" when it comes to anything cancer. And once, I was...

    I remember once saying if I ever got cancer, I would hang upside down from a chandlier having coffee enemas administred by Tibetan oranutans if I thought it would kill the Beast.

    Fast Forward...I did no such thing! After surgery, chemo and radiation, I swore if I ever got a recurrance, I wouldn't go through with that again. 5 Years later, I would of course do it all over again. But the enemas, etc etc...No Thanks!

    As with everything else in life,it is all personal and subjective. Fears, insecurities, upbringing, longings, you name it, it comes into play in ways we may not have dreamed of.

    Our "Sisterhood of the Traveling Mammograms" knows all too well the decisions which ultimately fall upon us alone after a diagnosis.

    I have a gut feeling that your friend is strong-willed and opinionated on many things in life~ be it childrearing, politics, gun control...whatever the hot button may be. The problem is not so much what she says, but YOUR reaction to it! ( I of course have the same reaction as you do!!)

    Hope and pray she never has to make a decision to fight or not....and when enough is enough.

    Coug, I suppose you will just know that Sue cannot be the topic you can discuss when you are with your friend in common.

    I don't know what else to say on this one!

    Hugs,
    Claudia
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    #7
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    I just want to write to congratulate you on biting your tongue. I know it is hard. I should do it more often! But, when all is said and done, even said unkindly, this woman lost her friend. Sure, she should bite her tongue too! But she seems to be clinging to her righteousness to protect herself - she has some awareness work she needs to do. You don't have to be her mentor in this...surely the path of life will teach her some lessons that may be painful. But thanks to your control, she can take that path. Of course it made you angry. Me too. Someday, she will be wiser. Let's hope that she learns the lessons from life and not her own personal DX. Because, while it has been a good teacher to me, I never wanted to go to this school! You are a wonderful person. Love, Joyce
  • Stormy8281
    Stormy8281 Member Posts: 24
    #8
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    Coug,

    After you had your conversation with your friend, did you feel a little kiss on your cheek? from Sue

    Good For You!!

    Gale
  • CindyPR
    CindyPR Member Posts: 36
    #9
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    Hey Friend,
    It is a tough fight, as have gone through it with no friends except you guys and family. Living so far away, who is going to hold your hand. Thank goodness for hubby and new friends.
    Do not be angry as cancer is going through us. We are here as friends, and hope the chat gets up. It is hard to talk on this as we do need chat.
    Love you friend.
    Love Cindy

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