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Oligomicrometastatic cancer

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3045
Joined: Nov 2010

Micrometastases

I wonder if we ever manage to identify and locate the tiny little buggers we call micrometastases. I would appreciate receiving opinions or any information you, ladies and gentlemen of this board, know or have found in your researches.
Unfortunately, I was again told that I have them and that, in my case, it will be difficult to radically eliminate the cancer with spot radiation as I have been hoping. I guess that now I may start using the term “oligomicrometastatic cancer”, to identify my case.

This week I had an 18F choline PET exam and was told by the attending Nuclear Medicine Physician Dr. Frederik Jonge (a 27 years veteran in the trade) that the whole body image does not identify cancer. He commented to believe that I have micrometastases which are hard to be found by radio nuclear isotopes (this comment surprised me). He proposed to give a second look but his final judgment on the images provided in the PET is that to be negative for adenocarcinoma.

Surely I will wait for his second looks but I also plan to get second opinions of other nuclear doctors. However, his comment gave me the impression that if the cancer does not spread wider I will never get a picture of the bandit. This is a big blow in my hope for an oligometastatic treatment to try and eradicate the bandit for good.

The first doctor diagnosing me with micrometastases was the oncologist Susan Slovin at MSKCC, back in 2002, but she was just guessing her opinion on my status. There was not much information or knowledge on the condition at those times. In fact the group of PCa specialists where she belonged was at that time engaged in qualifying the outcomes of salvage therapies comparing the results of earlier against latter attacks. Slovin was studying a series of recurrence cases all with different patterns of aggressivity and in one of her papers she defines the now famous term used by many physicians “6 months” as the longest period one could way till starting a salvage therapy.
She told me that micrometastases, even made up of low aggressive Gleason rates (<3), could be grouped with the worse cases in terms of difficulty to treat.

Many of the participants in this forum know about the details of my case from previous threads (links below). I will just add that along 2017, my PSA has risen reaching the value of 2.05 ng/ml (T=329), in the beginning of December (Sep; PSA=1.78 / T=306) which lead to the PET exam. This PSA level of 2.0 is recommended for 18F choline nuclear images if one wants to assure a positive image result. That was my aim this time and the reason for waiting the PSA to increase. Meanwhile, the cancer had a free ride but I will restart ADT and knock it down again. I got the impression that I failed and the bandit won.

My doctor wants to restart ADT with a PSA of 2.0 but I am tempted to allow extra time and let the bandit to continue in its frenzy parties of testosterone cocktails letting the PSA increase further to try again with a more sophisticated image exam such as the PSMA PET exam which I trust to be better than the F18 CH PET, but unfortunately, on this date this exam is not yet approved by the National Health (European) so that one would need to go private to have it, and this is not cheap. Another pitfall is that the exam may fail again because it depends on the characteristics of one’s case. So far many PSMA trials have been hold around the world (in the past 4 years) showing several isotope combinations that were better in delivering the PSMA (dotatate). One needs to choose the clinic using the modeling tracer (chelator of radionuclides) most appropriate to his own case. We need firstly to get a doctorate in the field for not erring.

My history of the past 5 years in these links;

https://csn.cancer.org/node/268900

https://csn.cancer.org/node/290854

Basic introduction of Image exams;

https://www.dovepress.com/cr_data/article_fulltext/s45000/45315/

F18 presents better image in lower resolution PET machines. A comparison of two modalities in this link;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26013479

My next appointment is scheduled for October 2018 so that I have time to see how things unwind. Surely before that I will decide on something.

Best wishes for 2018 to all comrades of this forum,

VGama

 

hewhositsoncushions
Posts: 279
Joined: Mar 2017

Cheers George

Needed a lift - Apparantly I am suffering from the post SRT "down" and letting negative thoughts get to me.

H

Georges Calvez
Posts: 307
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi H,

We all have bad moments; both physical and moral.
I have had some truly awful ones, but hey ho we manage to pick ourselves up and go on.
Remember always, in the great majority of cases it takes a long time to die of this sh*t, most of us die of something else.

Chin up and carry on,

Georges

Georges Calvez
Posts: 307
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi there,

I agree with Vasco on the idea that there is a cure but big pharma or anyone else is hiding it away. There are too many people working away in the same areas all the time for people to not repeatedly find the same thing.
It is like so many conspiracy theories, it requires a lot of people to lie, be bought off, etc for it to be credible.
And the rewards for anyone who breaks the silence are astronomical.
Time to take a pizza with loads of tomato and a glass of red with the wife.
This is a good global review of metastases and the immune system, I must read it in more depth tomorrow.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320453567_The_immune_system_in_cancer_metastasis_Friend_or_foe

Bon vendredi soir,

Georges*

*Happy comme d'habitude!

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3045
Joined: Nov 2010

George

You may be right about existing conspiracies in medicine but I do not see a reason for big pharmas to conspire by keeping a secret about a drug that works. If you reread my above post to you I said that I am not aware of the existence of a drug that real cures. Laboratories are working on it and have reached to astonishing findings but have no Silver Bullet yet. The Pharmas managers are more interested in keeping their shareholders happy with volumes in earnings. They inflate the drugs costs according to demand and a Silver Bullet would fulfill such interest. It would be in their favor to announce it the soonest before another pharma steps in. Fortunately to us there are no conspirators like Marcus Allen (moon landing hoax) in medicine. Touch wood.

A note to Cushions; I wonder where from you got that refractory progression rates. Many factors are behind refractory and the causes depend much on the type, frequency and number of blockades. The worse scenario occurs when the cancer starts producing its own androgens for survival. This is when the bandit feels its living threatened (by the constant lack of androgens at disposal due to continuous ADT). At that moment it activates our bodies’ survival mechanisms unchaining a series of events to resist the anti cancer treatments. With an intermittent approach one manages to maintain the bandit indolent allowing periods off drugs, serving free testosterone cocktails to satisfy the buggers. Then, we strike again stopping the party. No more testosterone drinks available. Hopefully the on/off periods are repeated till we got the Silver Bullet or just till when we revisit the moon.  Smile

Best to you all.

VG

lighterwood67's picture
lighterwood67
Posts: 219
Joined: Feb 2018

Good one.

A To touch wood or knock on wood is a superstitious action to ward off any evil consequences or bad luck, perhaps because of some recent action you've taken or untimely boasting about your good fortune (“I've never been in danger of drowning, touch wood”); it can also be a charm to bring good luck.  We need some luck around here.

Georges Calvez
Posts: 307
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi Vasco,

I think we have got tangled in my English.
I do not believe that Big Pharma or anyone else has found anything better than what we have now but has decided to hide it away.
As you say the rewards would be astronomical and if it worked in even one cancer the chance would be there it would work in others so getting in a global patent would potentially unlock untold future riches.
When I worked in organic synthesis we talked about blockbuster drugs, a blockbuster would make more than USD 1 billion in sales over its lifetime.
A cure for prostate cancer would be a double or triple blockbuster, if it was cheap enough doctors would give it to all the marginal cases just in case.

Best wishes,

Georges

hewhositsoncushions
Posts: 279
Joined: Mar 2017

@George / Vasco - you are right. It is also the same logical argument that alternative medicine is either woo woo or something pharma would use. There is no way pharma would ignore some herb that some kaftan wearing hippy swears by if it really worked. There is too much medicine.

@vasco - re refractory time it was on a forum post somewhere where a PCA patient said that was what he was quoted from an onco as the average length of effective time HT works with follow on treatment adding 2-2 years on average. In the light of day, I realise in the cold light of day that the statistic is meaningless because it includes patients with all types, staging and progression of PCA so any result will be skewed. You are right baout intermittent HT but I have no idea ofthe NHS use this in anger.

 

H

Georges Calvez
Posts: 307
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi Cushions,
This will will give you some idea, you are low down in the risk groups;
https://www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/prostate-cancer-survival-rates-wha...
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/prostate-cancer/detection-diagnosis-stagin...
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/prostate-cancer/survival
https://www.cancer.net/cancer-types/prostate-cancer/stages-and-grades
So I would bet that you have a very good chance of more than 15 years so stop polishing your harp! :-)

Best wishes,

Georges

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3045
Joined: Nov 2010

Unfortunately the comments posted in this thread after October 26, 2018, were hijacked by the CSN IT administrators. Somehow they pulled the plug and let it drain unnoticed. The lost is big for the fantastic exchanged opinions I received from the fellas of this board. I have though in giving up with any more updates of this thread but I think it to be unfair to those that have followed my story since the beginning. I am sure that, just like me 18 years ago, many guys afflicted by the disease procure information in forums like ours and would like to know how one has faired on a treatment or activity. I recall those days in 2000 when I received so much help from the survivors at the occasion.

I cannot repeat what has been discussed or looted here but I can provide updates on my latest findings and decisions that follow the initial posts in this thread. In such regard, I want to tell that I consulted a radiotherapist (NHS) in December 2018 who requested a 68Ga-PSMA PET/CT. This exam was done on February 20 2019 under the expectancy that it would pinpoint the location(s) where the bandit hides but, for the surprise of all in the team (doctors, researchers and I), the results were negative. In other words this PSMA PET detected nothing that could be judged as metastasis of PCa. Surely this is upsetting because it leaves me out from the possibility in eradicating cancer with spot radiation. The news came from the radiotherapist that was evaluating any possibility in having rads over rads. The exam was done at the reliable research laboratory/clinic Champalimaud (one of the biggest and best in Europe in terms of facilities and staff). She commented last December that the results of the 18F-choline PET/CT done one year ago (positive findings) were not as precise as the ones done with PSMA isotope in prostate cancer cases. This time she ended the conversation by recommending me to inquire with my urologist (next meeting scheduled for end o May) about the possibility in doing a biopsy of the prostate bed to confirm the results of the 18F-CHL PET (details in above previous posts).

The false negative of the Ga68 PSMA PET surprised me very much. This is a test I believe vehemently to be the best for PCa detection but the result in my case with no gland in place and continuous increasing PSA (PSA=1.71 at the time of the exam), set me to check deeply into the PSMA world.
I read loads of papers and now I am convinced that the negative result may be due to the type of cancerous cells I have which seem to be less prone for detection via the protein/enzyme PSMA. Gleason rates of 3 and lower or benign have lesser activity in prostatic specific membrane antigens.

According to the several results from clinical trials on detection and on radionuclide treatments, lower risky cases made up of Gleason scores 6 (mine are 2+3) got the lower rates in detection and higher rates in treatment failures (LU177-PSMA therapy). On the other side of the coin, Gleason rate 4 and 5 and aggressive cases including refractory PCa got the best percentage in detection and treatment success. Another issue is that PSMA is also found in the lining of some other organs, including blood vessels, bladder cancer and colorectal cancer. Researchers at MSKCC gone further and commented that this PSMA may be the culprit causing PCa to became invasive.
I wonder if doctors in the future request a PSMA blood test before proposing any PSMA exam. This protein is found in all prostate cells, indicating higher levels when prostate cancer exists. A blood test for PSMA is highly sensitive but it does not substitute the traditional PSA in judgments.

The good of the 68Ga-PSMA PET is that its half-life is 68 minutes (long enough for a reliable exam) and the isotope can be done at any nuclear facility using a simple generator. Other isotopes require larger facilities with cyclotron capability that limits the test to a fewer number of nuclear clinics (C11 choline with just 20 minutes half-life) or to the smaller facilities that are closer enough to the cyclotron that would supply the F18 choline (half-life 110 minutes).

Here are some of the links that took me further into the papers from the studies serving in reference for the articles;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1472940/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5886992/

https://www.mskcc.org/blog/psma-new-target-prostate-cancer-treatment

http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/56/8/1131

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879850017302060

 

Well, this is where I stand. Two PET exams with two different results, and a lower PSA of 1.71 (Feb 2019) down from 2.13 (Dec 2018). Adding to the mixture will be the opinion from the urologist that I doubt that will recommend a biopsy of tissues at the area affected by the radiation done in 2006. Apart from that I also doubt that any radiotherapist would want to apply more rads over rads on the fossa area (not as spots) which has received the full scope of Grays admissive (close to 42 Gy in a total of 68Gy). I may just continue with ADT till this fails.

Best wishes to my comrades.

VGama

 

hewhositsoncushions
Posts: 279
Joined: Mar 2017

Hey Vasco

Sorry to hear this. You seem quite frustrated at your inability to nail down the bandit. Are you still able to consider intermittent HT?

H

lighterwood67's picture
lighterwood67
Posts: 219
Joined: Feb 2018

Maybe the technology to accurately identify Micrometastases is just not here yet.  I think we will always wonder are we really 100 % cured.  I really do not know enough about this to comment.  I guess I would look at it as trying to find the needle in the haystack.  I am not going to look for that needle long.  Especially, if I already have plenty of needles.  Anyway, thanks for all the comments to this site.  You are certainly a great resource to this forum.  I did find this article.  You have probably already seen this.

18 F-PSMA-1007 PET / CT Detects Micrometastases in a Patient With Biochemically Recurrent Prostate Cancer

To date, several radioactive tracers for imaging primary and recurrent prostate cancer are undergoing active investigation. In this case report fluorine-18 (F)eprostate-specific membrane antigen (PSMA)-1007 positron emission tomography (PET)/computed tomography imaging was performed, to our knowledge, for the first time in a patient with biochemical recurrence (prostate-specific antigen [PSA] 0.08 mg/L) after radical prostatectomy and adjuvant radiation. Seventeen lymph nodes with increased tracer uptake along the retroperitoneum and iliac arteries were detected. Therefore, early treatment with intermittent androgen deprivation was initiated instead of locoregional salvage therapy. Hence, F-PSMA-1007 PET imaging at very low PSA levels provided critical information to correctly restage disease. 

Josephg
Posts: 168
Joined: Jan 2013

Thank you for your detailed update, Vasco.  It is ALWAYS great reading your though-provoking content, anytime that you post to this forum.  I share your disappointment regarding the non-definitive results of your latest PET scan.  I know that you were hoping for more definitive results, and the lack thereof must be truly frustrating to you. 

I believe that we travel parallel journeys in our PCa lives, so I am particularly interested in reading about your experiences on your PCa journey, and how they may reflect upon my journey.  When the time comes for me to have the PET scan, perhaps I will have greater success in locating the hiding place(s) of the bandit, due to my higher Gleason score (4+3).

Keep the faith, Brother!

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3045
Joined: Nov 2010

Hi there,

Thanks for the comments.

Cushions; Surely I will continue ADT intermittently until something new is discovered or the situation becomes worse requiring a continuous approach. Last December I meet the new onco-urologist that is now the doctor following my case and we discussed on the protocol. I will get bicalutamide plus leuprolide shots to lower the PSA to values of less than 0.05 ng/ml, stopping the drugs when such condition has been maintained for one full year. Then I will be again on vacation from the drugs till the PSA increases and reaches to 2.5 ng/ml level. This new doctor also gave me the papers to have the  68Ga-PSMA PET, so that I got two requests from the NHS, free of charge. I used one and will return the extra when we meet in May. It seems that the EU urological associations under the NHS reached the consensus that PET diagnosis is the new norm in prostate cancer. I wonder if the same is happening in England.

Lighterwood67; Thanks for the link on the new isotope 18F-PSMA. The paper I read regards the results from just one patient with a very low PSA of 0.08 ng/ml and with a Gleason score of 7 (4+3). In other studies on this isotope researchers concluded that the Fluorine-18 (18F) is better than the Gallium-68 (68Ga) because it doesn't excrete via the urinary track so that the image of closed lymph nodes (inguinal) can be well interpreted. 68Ga is excreted turning the ureters bright. This is where some of the critical lymph nodes are set. In fact, all the studies confirm that lower Gleason rates (3 and less) fair poorly in PSMA detection, independently of the tracer in use; 18F or 68Ga. In poorly differentiated cases (Gr 4 and 5) both tracers provide similar capabilities in terms of the number of positive detections. In any case, 18F may be more appealing in initial diagnosis where lymph nodes detection are crucial.

It seems to me that this revolutionary PSMA has started a war on the tracers. The 18F has been around for much longer than the 68Ga and its use gave rise to the construction of costly facilities for cyclotrons to produce the 18F tracer. Gallium-68 needs a simple generator so that it is much easier to be acquired by the flourishing image clinics around the word. However, clinically speaking the advantages of 18F against 68Ga are not that strikingly different. In this respect Fluorine 18 risks to lose the market and that is not acceptable by the pharmas. I recall the case of Proton beam that even being better than photons in delivering radiation, it requires special facilities very costly so that a very few number of those facilities exist around the word.

Here are the links;

https://www.clinical-genitourinary-cancer.com/article/S1558-7673(16)30375-5/fulltext 

http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/58/11/1805.full

http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/60/3/362.full

https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/rg.2017170035

Josephg; I hope you get cured and that the image exam never becomes required to locate any bandit. Interestingly, the patient of above link presented by Lighterwood refers to a patient of Gleason score 7 (4+3) with a similar clinical abstract RP (pT3a, N0, M0; Gleason score 4+3; positive margins) Adjuvant RT (60 Gy in 30 fractions), PSA level decreased from 5.3 before to 0.03 ng/mL after surgery followed by gradual increase of PSA to 0.08 ng/mL. You may be interested in reading that article.

Best wishes for all of you.

VGama

 

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3045
Joined: Nov 2010

Update on my clinical stage

Friends,

My uro-oncologist and the radiotherapist at the same hospital have finally commented that I am fighting a systemic case. This ends my wish in using radiation to eliminate the bandit for good.

As you may follow above, this thread has been about my experiences in trying to identify oligometastatic disease which would be attacked with spot radiation but the latest image exams together with previous clinical histogram did not localize metastases at areas feasible enough for safe radiotherapy. The results identify occurrences at the same place radiated 11 years ago (68Gy), which together with the identified radical proctitis in the colon and cystitis in the urethra and bladder, have ruled out such a possible delivery of rads over rads.

I managed a consultation with the nuclear doctor (Prof Durval Costa) from the Champalimaud research hospital who did my last 68 Ga PSMA-PET exam. He certified that PET results are not fully trustful in diagnosis because people’s cells do not react equally to the same radiopharmaceutical and cells may be similar but not equal in individuals. PSMA isotopes may not react to high SUV if such cells express little membrane antigens. Apart from that he told me on the possible fact that the image is blurred at certain areas where the radiopharmaceutical is seen (high SUV) but not in absorbed form. He agrees that the bladder may lead to inappropriate judgment in areas close to the prostate gland.

Accordingly, I have given up in getting additional image exams to locate the bandit at this timing. My last PSA has increased to 1.88 ng/ml keeping the plateau started in April of 2017 with ups and downs in the range of +/- 0.20.
I do not know when the ADT’s trigger threshold of 2.50 ng/ml is reached and do not know if my case gets worse for continued period with no treatment (7 years on off-drugs already). I wonder if there is any information regarding guys with systemic disease that stayed out of treatment during many years. What do oncologists think on the fact? I would like so much to get an opinion from Dr Myers or a similar expert.

Adding to my update, I want to inform that I have had more hematuria cases (three times this year). I have experienced urine retention due to blockage of the urethra by a blood clog which had to be forced (using kegels muscles) to be spit out. It cleans later but the frequency of the occurrence is worrisome. I know that the cause is the chronic cystitis (a wound that never cures totally). The body makes it to bleed to oxygenate the area and when it is too much leads to forming clogs.

This is a late side effect from my salvage radiotherapy (2006). There is no proper treatment apart from the Hyperbaric oxygen therapy (HBOT) followed by some PCa survivors but I think it to be risky in systemic disease.
Prostate cancer needs newer blood vessels to survive and grow, and the HBOT works by helping in forming newer blood vessels (not what we want to have locally) to supply plenty of oxygen to the wound. Well, I wonder if my urologist (an expert in HBOT) got an opinion on the issue on our next meeting.

With this post I may end this thread and will provide updates in a newer thread. Though, I will continue replying to opinions or questions on the matter here.

Best wishes to those fighting this disease that never ends.

VGama

 

vendetta
Posts: 18
Joined: Jun 2019

VascodaGama, I just want to say that you are an amazing champion not only for yourself, but for the countless others that actively participate on this forum and for the lurkers like myself. Please keep up the good fight as you have been and I pray that someday in our lifetimes that they put a noose around this beast's neck.

Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3's picture
Max Former Hodg...
Posts: 3328
Joined: May 2012

V,

I suspect that even if you reach a HT treatment trip-point with your PSA, you will continue to be a winner and best this disease for many years to come.  In terms of knowledge shared, attitude, and spirit, the PCa Board has never before seen your equal,

max

Georges Calvez
Posts: 307
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi Vasco,

Never say die and I know that you won't until the bandit has you in a death grip.
You have a PSA of less than two and no evidence of metastases outside the pelvis.
Really it is hard to pin anything down from your last results, I would guess that you have at least five good years in the bank if nothing else gets you.
So have a glass tonight.
I have just bought a Mini Countryman 143 ch, SD, ALL4, top speed 200 km/h, 0 - 100 km/h in 9 seconds, woo hoo!!!

Cordialment,

Georges

lighterwood67's picture
lighterwood67
Posts: 219
Joined: Feb 2018

Look forward to reading your new thread.  Systemic case is just another group of words to something we already know.  Yes, we have prostate cancer.  As with all other treatment in men with prostate cancer, a thorough assessment of health and comorbidities, as well as patient goals and wishes, plus the best available biological predictors of tumor behavior, need to be considered in formulating an effective treatment plan. Given the frequency of this clinical problem, and the associated financial and human costs of therapy, this remains the best path forward.  "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings."  So with that said, I wish you luck on your journey and I am truly grateful for your total devotion to keep folks informed on this site.  Thanks.

Josephg
Posts: 168
Joined: Jan 2013

You are a fighter and an incredible source of information, experience, and perspective to us here on this Forum.

For me personally, as we have previously discussed, we may be on parallel paths in our encounters and fights with the Bandit, so I remain highly focused on your journey, and welcome your continuing to share your journey information with me.

Our thoughts and best wishes are always with you.

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3045
Joined: Nov 2010

Vendetta, Georges, Lighterwood, Josephg and Max,

Thanks for the positive comments. I am hopeful that the continuing hormonal treatment gives me the control over the bandit for a long period of my remaining life. I would be satisfied with those 5 years pointed by Georges so that I can watch again man on the Moon but this time in color. Unfortunately I doubt that ADT can keep me till 2034 to see man on Mars.

Sincerely I hope that Josephg has a different path other than a systemic course. Something with a successful end knocking down the bandit for good. Meanwhile I will dream on the 0 - 100 km/h in 9 seconds Mini of Georges. I had a Mini Cooper S in my university times (1970th) also clamming the same 9 seconds but never reached.

Best to you all.

VGama

Georges Calvez
Posts: 307
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi Vasco,

Just had a look and your Mini S could have had a one litre engine developing 70 cv and weighed about 700kg, mine will have a two litre engine developing 143 cv and weigh about 1400kg.
So the Mini has got a bit bigger, but it is not a roadster, they weigh a lot less, more like your Cooper S and they have bigger and more powerful engines.

Best wishes,

Georges

Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3's picture
Max Former Hodg...
Posts: 3328
Joined: May 2012

The current Minis are moderately popular in the US today. I don't know who makes them, but they are distributed via BMW dealers, so the quality is believed in.  Unlike the other microcar available in the US, the Fiat 500, which has a horrible reputation as junk. Also the Smartcar for Two, by Mercedes:  has never sold, and always evaluated by professionals as a miserable driving experience, and even gets relatively poor milage, the ultimate irony.

The Abarth Fiat 500 version, however, is moderately successful among "tuners" and kids without sufficient funds to buy a used Nissan Z, Camaro, or Mustang.

Georges Calvez
Posts: 307
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi Max,

The marque is now owned by BMW but are put together in the UK.
Mine shares quite a few bits with the Audi Q3 as it is basically the same thing, a sports 4x4.
It is not really comparable to any of the microcars that you quote as a new one will set you back about EUR 30 - 40,000.
They also go up to 300 cv in the roadster version which is twice as hot as a Fiat Abarth 500 but that is an old man's car and even then you need deep pockets as they drink fuel and the insurance want plenty of cash to insure one.
You can buy a second hand Nissan Z, etc quite cheaply here and I could insure it for a not unreasonable amount but if I was under thirty it would be more than a bit scary, coupling one of those with a girlfriend / fiancée / wife that wanted holidays could result in periodic bouts of ear aching as she watched me write a cheque that would pay for a fortnight in the sun for two for the annual insurance!
This is the latest and greatest version of mine in diesel.
https://bmw-quimper-latitude-automobiles.espacevo.fr/annonce/69104867736/

Best wishes,

Georges

Georges Calvez
Posts: 307
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi VdG,

How authentic is this?
Being a chemist I could easily adapt the recipe for one, two, four, etc.
Make it in the shaker or stir over ice and pour.
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2019/jul/26/cocktail-of-the-week-casa-d...

Best wishes,

Georges

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 3045
Joined: Nov 2010

Hi Georges,

This cocktail using rum is not typical of Portugal. We have similar ones but instead of rum (Brazilian cachaça) it is used a sweet liquor distilled from herbs and seeds (Licor Beirão) or fruits initially made into “aguadente” (eau de vie) like Medronho (arbutus fruit), Ginginha (wild Cherries) and Figs.In regards to rum, the Portuguese prefer Caipirinha (a Brazilian eau de vie made with cachaça).

However, I noticed that the drink is served in a Portuguese restaurant (Casa do Frango) in London where the menu is typical from the Algarve (southern region of Portugal), more precise, from the place where I live close to Albufeira. The Frango piripiri (spicy chicken) is claimed to have started in village Guia, and then turned famous among the millions of tourists visiting the area (winery of “Sir” Cliff Richard). I offered to the locals a roundabout representing the Frango piripiri, which is mentioned now in tourist guides as the “Guia Chicken and Wine Roundabout”. They placed my name on it. http://guia.pt.algarve-portal.com/

Well, you can prepare the cocktail there in northern France (and invite us) or come down with your Mini and get the original here with Medronho at my place. It is 2,000 Km of test driving.

VG

 

Georges Calvez
Posts: 307
Joined: Sep 2018

Hi Vasco,

I am not promising anything but I may be able to get the wife and the cat to agree to a trip to Portugal.
Nothing is certain yet but you never know.
I hope that you manage to keep the bandit under firm control and have a Merry Christmas and a healthy New Year.

Best wishes,

Georges

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