Prognosis

2

Comments

  • jullo234
    jullo234 Member Posts: 27
    edited October 2016 #22

    A matter of units' equivalence

    Jullo,

    You seem upset for your husband's preference on his doctor's opinion but which oncologist you think to be correct in regards to the best level of Vitamin D?

    The argument may be just a misunderstanding over the units in discussion. Vitamin D levels in blood is typically measured in ng/ml or nmol/L, therefore, one must tell which unit is used to avoid errors. For instance the level of 30 ng/ml equals 90 nmol/L.
    In such regards, the "90" comment from the naturopath oncologist could be the "anything above 30" comment from his oncologist, if the former is using 90 nmol/L against the latter 30 ng/ml.

    In any case, I agree with you that your husband should be careful with vitamin D levels in the blood because both therapies (chemo and hormonal) will deteriorate his bone health, already affected by the presence of cancer. Old fellas in particular (I am 67 yo too) are at risk for lack of vitD as the skin (under the sun) do not produce the stuff as much as at young age. Of course he can try getting the vitamin D through diets and particular foods or via supplements. I read before that one pill of 1000 IU (25 mcg) per day increases vitamin D blood levels of 10 ng/ml, after 2 to 3 months of daily intake.

    However, vitamin D is not the only requirement your partner will need to feel improvements. I recommend him to have a DEXA scan to check the bone health. He may need to add to the treatment a sort of bisphosphanates to correct bone loss. Typical in stage 4 PCa patients are the drugs; Prolia (denosumab) or Zometa (zoledronic acid). Please research about this matter in the net for details and discuss with the oncologist. Here are reading materials;

    https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ta265?unlid=7373847220162924913

    Both of you are stressed with the situation so that you need to work together listen to both opinions fairly. In the end, PCa becomes an illness of the couple.

    Best wishes for improvements,

    VG

    Apologies in advance - how do

    Apologies in advance - how do I single space my text ?

    I thought all Vit D was measured the same ....

    Im sure there are much bigger fish to fry than vit d . 

    I wonder if the dr was going to mention DEXA scan at next appt.

    I will research the info you sent me before next wed . So far

    they haven't mentioned anything .. 

    Yoir help and others is much appreciated !

    J

  • jullo234
    jullo234 Member Posts: 27

    Direct

    I will be somewhat blunt, Jullo, for the sake of honesty and in the hope that he gets better:

    "Naturopathic medicine", at leat in the realm of fighting cancer, is another way of saying "flake" medicine, or "dream" medicine.  It may sound good in theory, and the desire to be "natural," but cancer cells are not "natural," and when a person is Stage 4, nothing in their immune system is going to turn back the disease. This is very close to universally accepted here, and IS universally accepted among doctors.

    Good nutrition and healtful activities are always good for the body, and to be encouraged. But they are not curative of cancer.

    While he might or might not already be terminal (that is yet to be determined), abandoning medically approved treatments for someting else will only shorten his time, not lengthen it.

    Although many chemos are 'cumulative', in that they worsen side-effects during the course of use, so too do those side-effects fade away after use is ended, in most cases. Hair returns, appetite will come back (if his health otherwise allows it, and so forth).  Rarely, a side-effect will be lifelong: I have permanent neuropathy (numb hands adn feet, from nerve damage), for instance. But I'd rather have that numbness that what I would have if I'd never used the drugs, which would be death.

    max

    Supplements and Chemo

    Hi Max,

     These supplements are meant to support his system during chemo not in lieu of the chemo. The Dr

    ( who is a naturopath oncologist not just a naturopath) backed up every single supplemet with research.

    In essence a " Therapeutic Nutrition Guide."

    He asked for more lab tests to be run ( the Dr. where he receives chemo didnt seem to think necc. so they werent done.)

    Here s the lab tests requested:

    PSA and Percent Free PSA

    Cellsearch Circulating Tumor Cells- an FDA approved test for monitoring metastatic prostate cancer. ( perhaps used as a baseline to measure effectiveness of chemo?) ' "CTC counts are prognosis for overall survival.."

    BioCept CTC

    Serum NTx - A blood test of bone turnover that can be used to monitor metastasis to the bone.

    Alkaline Phosphatase, Bone Specific 

    LDH- prognostic indicator for prostate cancer patients with bone metastasis.

    So those were the tests  another thing the Naturopathic Doctor said ( lets call him ND ) was that the statins and heart medication 

    my partner are on were very dangerous to be taking with the hormone treatment. At this moment I do not know the names of his heart medications

    otherwise I would name them. How worrying is that? He recommended that he come off of these medications while on Hormone Treatment as basicallly the 

    interaction could be deadly.( I recorded this session and will go back to better understand what he was saying). 

    Next week when going for chemo round 3 I wonder should I bring this up to the Dr.  I was not at chemo round 2 as  he was there with his daughter.

    Or do I call up his cardiologist and ask him? It s frightening to think that the interaction of medications could be lethal combination.

    My partner once again beliieves what the Dr says and so goes with that information.  He told me that surely the cancer and heart Dr were conferring and this would have already been looked at. I'm not so sure.

    Here are some of the supplements recommended:

    Modified Citrus Pectin ( Absorbs into bloodstream and binds with harmful sticky cell surface proteins called Galectins....Harmful because they

    attach to tissue and attract bloood vessels which provide nourishment for abnormal cells to grow,thrive, aannd spreadd.

    Solufiber Blend - inversely associaated with ttumor cell proliferaatioin.

    Cod Liver OIl "resistantance to the chrronic oxidative stress observed in the pathogenesis of prostate cancer.

    Flax OIl

    precursors for steroid production and hormone synthesis

    Mycocomplex - 6 medicinal mushrooms

    The rest of the supplements that were recommended were " designed to treat the core constitutional aspects of the body."

    also others " designed to reach the organ syystem level to help strengthen weakened areas.

    Really, the list goes on and on. Every single suupplement is backed up by research notations. I could go to each one on the web and try to research

    but at this time I am choosing not to as my partner and his children do not want to bbe confused by other options. 

    It seems that cancer brings out many well meaning folks who say have you tried this? ust yesterday I was told to look up Max Gurson(phkillscancer.com)

    In which a combination of baking soda, molasses and water changes the alkaline levels(?) The man on the youtube video proclaims he had stage 4 prostate cancer and this concoction saved him.

    So one can go down one rabbit hole into another. Which one is the right one? Does one just say just follow Dr's order and leave the rest out of it?

    I have known two people whos cancer is in remission ( was metastastic one had testicular cancer and one had breast and then ovarian cancer). They did chemo and the naturopathic supplement route. Both are doing well today. Of course each cancer is uniquely different and so is not going to respond the same way.

    Thank you for your time and input,

    Julia

     

     

  • Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3
    Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3 Member Posts: 3,803 Member
    edited October 2016 #24
    Old Salt said:

    Off topic

    I started a new topic on problems associated with the software.

    Apologies to Jullo!

     

    Good

    Great - such a discussion is much needed at CSN Dicussion Boards.

    max

  • Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3
    Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3 Member Posts: 3,803 Member
    jullo234 said:

    Supplements and Chemo

    Hi Max,

     These supplements are meant to support his system during chemo not in lieu of the chemo. The Dr

    ( who is a naturopath oncologist not just a naturopath) backed up every single supplemet with research.

    In essence a " Therapeutic Nutrition Guide."

    He asked for more lab tests to be run ( the Dr. where he receives chemo didnt seem to think necc. so they werent done.)

    Here s the lab tests requested:

    PSA and Percent Free PSA

    Cellsearch Circulating Tumor Cells- an FDA approved test for monitoring metastatic prostate cancer. ( perhaps used as a baseline to measure effectiveness of chemo?) ' "CTC counts are prognosis for overall survival.."

    BioCept CTC

    Serum NTx - A blood test of bone turnover that can be used to monitor metastasis to the bone.

    Alkaline Phosphatase, Bone Specific 

    LDH- prognostic indicator for prostate cancer patients with bone metastasis.

    So those were the tests  another thing the Naturopathic Doctor said ( lets call him ND ) was that the statins and heart medication 

    my partner are on were very dangerous to be taking with the hormone treatment. At this moment I do not know the names of his heart medications

    otherwise I would name them. How worrying is that? He recommended that he come off of these medications while on Hormone Treatment as basicallly the 

    interaction could be deadly.( I recorded this session and will go back to better understand what he was saying). 

    Next week when going for chemo round 3 I wonder should I bring this up to the Dr.  I was not at chemo round 2 as  he was there with his daughter.

    Or do I call up his cardiologist and ask him? It s frightening to think that the interaction of medications could be lethal combination.

    My partner once again beliieves what the Dr says and so goes with that information.  He told me that surely the cancer and heart Dr were conferring and this would have already been looked at. I'm not so sure.

    Here are some of the supplements recommended:

    Modified Citrus Pectin ( Absorbs into bloodstream and binds with harmful sticky cell surface proteins called Galectins....Harmful because they

    attach to tissue and attract bloood vessels which provide nourishment for abnormal cells to grow,thrive, aannd spreadd.

    Solufiber Blend - inversely associaated with ttumor cell proliferaatioin.

    Cod Liver OIl "resistantance to the chrronic oxidative stress observed in the pathogenesis of prostate cancer.

    Flax OIl

    precursors for steroid production and hormone synthesis

    Mycocomplex - 6 medicinal mushrooms

    The rest of the supplements that were recommended were " designed to treat the core constitutional aspects of the body."

    also others " designed to reach the organ syystem level to help strengthen weakened areas.

    Really, the list goes on and on. Every single suupplement is backed up by research notations. I could go to each one on the web and try to research

    but at this time I am choosing not to as my partner and his children do not want to bbe confused by other options. 

    It seems that cancer brings out many well meaning folks who say have you tried this? ust yesterday I was told to look up Max Gurson(phkillscancer.com)

    In which a combination of baking soda, molasses and water changes the alkaline levels(?) The man on the youtube video proclaims he had stage 4 prostate cancer and this concoction saved him.

    So one can go down one rabbit hole into another. Which one is the right one? Does one just say just follow Dr's order and leave the rest out of it?

    I have known two people whos cancer is in remission ( was metastastic one had testicular cancer and one had breast and then ovarian cancer). They did chemo and the naturopathic supplement route. Both are doing well today. Of course each cancer is uniquely different and so is not going to respond the same way.

    Thank you for your time and input,

    Julia

     

     

    Still nonesense

    Yes, they call themselves "Naturopathic Oncologists," and sign their names "ND," but these people are NOT MEDICAL DOCTORS; they do not hold medical degrees. They go to their own parallel universe of training, similiar to chiropractors.

    Ask the "doctor" if he can write a perscription for you  -- for anything, and see what he says.

    I can show you YouTube videos of people who fly to Venus every night, or whose parents were aliens, from out past Pluto.

    max

     

  • jullo234
    jullo234 Member Posts: 27
    edited October 2016 #26

    Still nonesense

    Yes, they call themselves "Naturopathic Oncologists," and sign their names "ND," but these people are NOT MEDICAL DOCTORS; they do not hold medical degrees. They go to their own parallel universe of training, similiar to chiropractors.

    Ask the "doctor" if he can write a perscription for you  -- for anything, and see what he says.

    I can show you YouTube videos of people who fly to Venus every night, or whose parents were aliens, from out past Pluto.

    max

     

    Opinions

    I see you have a strong opinion about this. I dont really know enough to have an opinion. Im sure I havent dont an iota of the reading you have done.

    All I know is that when I look at Tom I see someone who was once as fit as a fiddle (two months ago,) going to the gym , biking and swimming. Doing more than most can do in a day. After two round of chemo he looks like a shrivelled up old man. Doctors sure as hell didnt catch the cancer then through whatever the hell testing theyre supposed to do . Now how does chemo catch it when its raging through his body. Who does have the answers?

  • hopeful and optimistic
    hopeful and optimistic Member Posts: 2,339 Member
    jullo234 said:

    Opinions

    I see you have a strong opinion about this. I dont really know enough to have an opinion. Im sure I havent dont an iota of the reading you have done.

    All I know is that when I look at Tom I see someone who was once as fit as a fiddle (two months ago,) going to the gym , biking and swimming. Doing more than most can do in a day. After two round of chemo he looks like a shrivelled up old man. Doctors sure as hell didnt catch the cancer then through whatever the hell testing theyre supposed to do . Now how does chemo catch it when its raging through his body. Who does have the answers?

    medical oncologist

    A medical oncologist is extremely qualified; probably the smartest of all the doctors that treat. Tom is in good hands. The medical oncologist knows what he is doing.

    I looked at the list that was given to you; most of these procedures are out dated or  based on Tom's diagnosis, unnecessary .

  • VascodaGama
    VascodaGama Member Posts: 3,638 Member
    Supplements and holistic therapies

    Julia (beautiful name)

    I read with interest your cross discussion with Max and Hopeful on supplements, and I think that even if the recommendations from the naturopath are supported with references and seem to be good, you should follow the oncologist's protocol, exactly as you say; to avoid any interaction of drugs. Supplements or certain foods can go both ways; the good path or the worse. One needs to be careful and take them under vigilance along the prime treatment scheduling. PCa medical oncologists are trained in the interchange of drugs/supplements, their reaction and include in the protocol a schedule thinking in future consequences and care.
    Your partner can inquire about the supplements and request for added tests which I think it wouldn't be against the oncologist's policy. He can even do the tests himself, as these wouldn't put into jeopardy the treatment. But are they all really necessary?

    Regarding holistic therapies you describe above, you do understand that cancer patients are constantly approached by people recommending sort of cures, particularly to those in very advanced stage (not Tom situation yet). We are high proponents for their "bread-and-butter" machine. Supplements aiming the cancer "department" belong to a business constantly flourishing and growing. In any case this is not new, and if some of the claimed stuff managed cure it would be known worldwide, not kept as a secret.

    Surely some guys believe in holistic ways of therapy and try most of the stuff. Nobody is against it, but only few recommend it. I recall back in 2001 when I discussed with a famous Chinese oncologist (I was experiencing recurrence) about the infamous PC-SPES. It was a marvel pill for PCa patients at the time but soon it was found to incorporate in its contents hormonal substances (drugs). A fake pill. The supplier closed the business and declared bankruptcy but the drug changed name and is still sold on the supplements market. You can read on the matter in this National Cancer Institute link;

    https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/pc-spes-pdq

    I guess you are having trouble in being heard by your partner and his children. You need to find a away to seat down and communicate all together. His degradation is evident but that is what chemo does. Later, after the treatment he recovers to a normalcy status (not 100% as previous). However, if vital signs become at risk while in treatment, he can stop the therapy in the middle. Be careful with any anemia symptom.

    Best wishes and peace of mind.

    VG

    A note on posting; I think you should continue the thread posting at the end not inbetween. It is a better way for those following your story and providing you with important opinions.

  • Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3
    Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3 Member Posts: 3,803 Member
    jullo234 said:

    Opinions

    I see you have a strong opinion about this. I dont really know enough to have an opinion. Im sure I havent dont an iota of the reading you have done.

    All I know is that when I look at Tom I see someone who was once as fit as a fiddle (two months ago,) going to the gym , biking and swimming. Doing more than most can do in a day. After two round of chemo he looks like a shrivelled up old man. Doctors sure as hell didnt catch the cancer then through whatever the hell testing theyre supposed to do . Now how does chemo catch it when its raging through his body. Who does have the answers?

    I can relate

    My cousin called me yesterday. Her brother, who was diagnosed with cancer three weeks before, covering his entire abdominal cavity, had died. After three weeks.

    A dear friend at church about two years ago had a mamo and it found Metastatic, Stage IV breast cancer. An aggressive variety known as "Triple Negative."  I looked up the prognosis, and Five Year Survival rates were around 10% .  She began surgery, chemo, everything.  It was not working very well, and she found a site online, a naturopathologist, who said he could cure any cancer.  She told her oncologist she was switiching over. He advised against, said the chemo might give her a year or more, but she made the choice for the "guaranteed' natural  "cure."  She died a few weeks after the chemo was turned off.....

    I have had two close friends die of PCa in the last ten years. The most recent one I basically took care of, since his family all lived out of state. I l learned a lot from going into his appointments with him, and he had tasked me with keeping his meds and what the doctors told him straight (his memory was gone by that point). His PSA whent over 1,000 at times.  Neither friend could be saved.

    Your husband's situation is dire. It is ashamed that he was not diagnosed sooner, for whatever reason.  I am profoundly sorry about his situation.  He might be terminal; maybe soon, maybe not.  As has been discussed here, other writers here have come back from situations about as bad as his.   But there are hopeless cases, which is why PCa kills 30,000 men in America annually, I guess.

    But what hope does exist exists within medical sciece, in my optinion, and in the opinion of medical doctors.  I hahve been around a lot of loved ones when they were told  "There is nothing we can do."  Oncology definitly has limits. Any human activity has limits.

    Bless the both of you with whatever you choose to do,

    max

  • ronyG
    ronyG Member Posts: 1
    edited October 2016 #30
    jullo234 said:

    The thought of the chemo as

    The thought of the chemo as being cumalative

    is depressing. I think i had read that , he has been such an active

    man and full of so much zest for life I hate to see this 

    suck the life force out of him . I had wanted him to follow the regimen 

    of a naturopath oncologist who offered a supplement and diet regime. I have known two

    other people who have down chemo and supplements with great success 

    He chose not to go this route as the dr frowned upon it. It is not my decisi to 

    make . I felt like I had to let go of trying to give info as it just seems to cause him 

    stress ....

    thanks for writing it means a lot to have people who are informed and care .

    2 with success forgive me I must ask ..

    I say again I feel, and am sorry for what you are going through.  Ye I must ask, As I have it too, and in a Bad way. You said you knew of two with success , who endured the procedure , I have to ask " how many do you know that it didn't work for ? " I am 63 , and it is forcing me to retire early ... my PSa was 16.96 in Sept 2016 and was 5.98 in May of 2015 .. So I ask in a real way .. 2 out of how many ?  again sorry for your situation

     

  • jullo234
    jullo234 Member Posts: 27
    Third round of Chemo.

    Thank you VG. At this point I think I can be most helpful in just being supportive. Ive stopped searching for other answers or a better cure.  Tom has chosen his route and is following what the doctor says. He has now had three rounds of chemo, with that come the hormone treatment, and a " bone shot." Im confused what the bone shot does -whether it is to actually strengthen the bone or whether it is to keep his white blood cell count from going to low. He has his fourth round of chemo on the 9th. This visit will be with the doctor so I will query about the DEXA scan. 

    Last week he was told that his PSA level has dropped down into the 20's.  Is this always what happened after taxotere and hormone shots? Do some peoples levels go up and others down? 

    Most of all I admire his positive attitude. He says every day is different with chemo and he doesnt know what to expect from it. In time I will investigate why nothing was done when his PSA levels went so high and he had been in Vietnam and sprayed with Agent Orange. If I can find a site in a quick search that says the two are linked - aggressive prostate cancer and agent orange- how can they have let this go on for so long.  I need to get an answer on that one. 

    As always thank you for your time,

    Julia

     

     

     

  • VascodaGama
    VascodaGama Member Posts: 3,638 Member
    Hormonal dependent PCa

    Julia,

    This is a great post and great update. You seem more composed. I hope things go smooth with Tom till the end.
    The PSA is now half from the 41 you told us in July. This decrease of the PSA (now 20 ng/ml) means that the cancer is hormone dependent. The shot stopped the production of testosterone so that the cancer became indolent producing lesser serum. The chemo will kill the cells destroying their DNA. It takes longer to verify the effect but both treatments will drive that PSA to much lower levels.

    Cancerous cells that for whatever reason are not hormonal dependent do not receive the same blow. Patients see improvements latter from the action of the chemo. Tom is fortunate and may expect longer periods of control.

    Several guys under VA (similar status of Tom) have posted here before regarding military claims. The following link is from the US Department of Veterans Affairs in regards to Prostate Cancer and Agent Orange. You may read for details;

    http://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/agentorange/conditions/prostate_cancer.asp

    Best wishes for continuing good results.

    VG

  • jullo234
    jullo234 Member Posts: 27

    Hormonal dependent PCa

    Julia,

    This is a great post and great update. You seem more composed. I hope things go smooth with Tom till the end.
    The PSA is now half from the 41 you told us in July. This decrease of the PSA (now 20 ng/ml) means that the cancer is hormone dependent. The shot stopped the production of testosterone so that the cancer became indolent producing lesser serum. The chemo will kill the cells destroying their DNA. It takes longer to verify the effect but both treatments will drive that PSA to much lower levels.

    Cancerous cells that for whatever reason are not hormonal dependent do not receive the same blow. Patients see improvements latter from the action of the chemo. Tom is fortunate and may expect longer periods of control.

    Several guys under VA (similar status of Tom) have posted here before regarding military claims. The following link is from the US Department of Veterans Affairs in regards to Prostate Cancer and Agent Orange. You may read for details;

    http://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/agentorange/conditions/prostate_cancer.asp

    Best wishes for continuing good results.

    VG

    VG,

    VG,

    I didnt realize I wasnt composed in previous posts :~) ! I still believe in the Naturopathic route but I have let go of pursuing that course as it is not Toms wish. 

    The VA  took so long to take any kind of action. I have a friend who had his prosate out when cancer was detected at4.2 PSA level! ( not in the VA system)He says he has had great success with the robotic surgery. If his PSA level was 11 or 12 in July 2015 I dont believe they should have waited until May 2016 to do a bioposy. Some may say theres no point dwelling in the past but I believe that someone dropped the ball. I think he is going to have three more rounds of chemo but waiting to see what the bone scan shows in Nov. If Im to understand you correctly you re sayingg that for now the cancer is "controlled." I didnt really understand what you meant when you said " patients see improvements later from the action of the chemo." Does that mean the hormone treatment is effectively keeping it under control and later the chemo will do the same? One day at a time...

     

     

  • Rakendra
    Rakendra Member Posts: 197 Member
    edited October 2016 #34
    jullo234 said:

    VG,

    VG,

    I didnt realize I wasnt composed in previous posts :~) ! I still believe in the Naturopathic route but I have let go of pursuing that course as it is not Toms wish. 

    The VA  took so long to take any kind of action. I have a friend who had his prosate out when cancer was detected at4.2 PSA level! ( not in the VA system)He says he has had great success with the robotic surgery. If his PSA level was 11 or 12 in July 2015 I dont believe they should have waited until May 2016 to do a bioposy. Some may say theres no point dwelling in the past but I believe that someone dropped the ball. I think he is going to have three more rounds of chemo but waiting to see what the bone scan shows in Nov. If Im to understand you correctly you re sayingg that for now the cancer is "controlled." I didnt really understand what you meant when you said " patients see improvements later from the action of the chemo." Does that mean the hormone treatment is effectively keeping it under control and later the chemo will do the same? One day at a time...

     

     

    Hydrogen Peroxide

    My suggestion is to youtube Hydrogen Peroxide for cancer.  This will not get any support on this board.  For what it is worth,  I, too, was diagnosed with "multiple, widespread matastic disease."  Psa was 300.  that was 41 months ago, so some do survive. I used naturopathic treatment, orchiectomy, and mostly spritual work.  I did not know about hydrogen peroxide at that time.  There is always hope.  My case was supposed to be hopeless as well.  Good Luck.  

    Love, Swami Rakendra

  • Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3
    Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3 Member Posts: 3,803 Member
    jullo234 said:

    VG,

    VG,

    I didnt realize I wasnt composed in previous posts :~) ! I still believe in the Naturopathic route but I have let go of pursuing that course as it is not Toms wish. 

    The VA  took so long to take any kind of action. I have a friend who had his prosate out when cancer was detected at4.2 PSA level! ( not in the VA system)He says he has had great success with the robotic surgery. If his PSA level was 11 or 12 in July 2015 I dont believe they should have waited until May 2016 to do a bioposy. Some may say theres no point dwelling in the past but I believe that someone dropped the ball. I think he is going to have three more rounds of chemo but waiting to see what the bone scan shows in Nov. If Im to understand you correctly you re sayingg that for now the cancer is "controlled." I didnt really understand what you meant when you said " patients see improvements later from the action of the chemo." Does that mean the hormone treatment is effectively keeping it under control and later the chemo will do the same? One day at a time...

     

     

    Document

    The first sentence of the document Vasco shared is key, as I understand VA policy:

    A serviceman who was in Vietnam and exposed to Agent Orange does not have to prove a causal link to PCa to automatically receive free medical care for the disease within the VA system.  This gives many men in the  US treatment who otherwise would not have health care.  The relative quality of that care remains subject to discussion in many quarters, but as I might have written before, all of the men I've known in the VA System were outsourced to civilian doctors anyway.

    I cannot answer the specifics of your question of Oct 29 to VG, but do know that both chemo and HT are used toward pallatative effect against PCa, so in the most general sense, both are working toward tumor shrinkage and a lowering of PSA.  I had a friend who had a PSA of over 1,000 when he began these a few years ago; the drugs beat the disease back to a level of around 150 for some time, or about a 90% reduction. But his case was one of the worst I've ever heard of, and by that time the disease had essentially ravaged his body.  Others here have had serious Stage 4 disease and lived a decade or more.

    As you noted, it is one day at a time, one PSA result at a  time. I wish you both the best results possible,

    max

  • VascodaGama
    VascodaGama Member Posts: 3,638 Member
    Biochemical events lead to cell changes and apoptosis

    Julia,

    Nobody has told you to give up with the "naturopathic route". You follow what you believe. My reference was in regards to your confusion and many inquires posted when confronting the situation. You are more experienced now, gained acknowledge on the facts and may feel better as the treatment advances and produces results.

    Supplements are very useful to balance when something is lacking and we cannot get it quickly from foods. Naturopathic medications to treat prostate cancer are not as effective as those in today's clinical use. They may "brush" the wound but do not treat the problem. I have investigated since 2001 about the benefits from the "famous" products and till today none ever found cure or gain better benefits than those "adapted" from clinical trials and later approved for use by the medical community. In fact many of those products recommended by naturopathic experts are substances included in the compounds of the traditional medicines but sold at higher prices (much more expensive).

    To understand how a drug works in a treatment for prostate cancer, one must understand the chemistry involved and the "techniques" of the therapy. Hormonal treatment (HT) is sort of a combine series of manipulations in our endocrine system and "manufacturing" of androgens. It does not attack cancerous cells directly. PCa survives on androgens so that the HT technique is to deprive the cancer from getting the stuff/androgens. Orchiectomy is the first "method" in use to stop production of testosterone (lowering the volume of androgens in circulation). The shot Tom is taking is working at the pituitary to stop this from sending down to the testis "orders" of testosterone production. The stoppage causes hypogonadism (chemical castration) so that PCa cells without "food" go indolent.

    Testosterone represents about 90% of the androgens in circulation in the body. The rest of the androgens are produced in the adrenal glands and thyroid. One could dissect them too but depriving other androgen dependent systems in the body would lead to grave consequences. Balance is needed. Physicians therefore try blocking these "extra" androgens via other manipulations done at different levels. For instance, antiandrogen medications (many of the products in naturopathic selves) manage to "get stacked/plugged" in cell's mouths/androgen receptors (AR) prohibiting the cancer from getting the real stuff. Still some other blockers work in the systems in charge of metabolizing the cholesterol into androgens, limiting these to be put in circulation.

    In that regard, androgen dependent PCa can be controlled longer by the several levels of blockades, before it becomes refractory. There are many HT drugs in the so called "second-line" HT that can take the place of those not working effectively. The mechanism allows long periods of control. I am hopeful that HT allows me 20 years before starting chemo.

    Chemo therapy works differently. This attacks the chemistry in cells' DNA (similarly to RT), therefore, it causes apoptosis during the cells life cycle that could last six months to complete. The biochemical event lead to characteristic cell changes and its death. Doubling does not occur. However, chemo works indiscriminately attacking other types of cells too. Some of these belong in the scope of the therapy (such as those metabolizing cholesterol to produce androgens), which action assures a bigger blow to the cancer and more effective treatment outcome.

    The problem with chemo is that it also "kills" cells that should not be part of the treatment. The chemo medication is therefore studied and dosed to cause the lesser effects to other cells. This fact lowers the efficacy of the chemo when killing prostate cancer. It turns the drugs palliative, other wise these would kill whole our living blocks and we would die.

    The double blow (HT plus Chemo) will prolong life but it will cause nasty side effects. Some patients experience mild situations. Our "homework" is to find ways for controlling the side effects via particular diets, change in life attics, fitness programs and supplements that do not interact with the medications of the therapy. Antioxidants are Bad in chemo therapies as it may try to protect/revive cancerous cells that should die. Much effort should be exercised in the decision on preventive treatments to counter the side effects and possible illnesses arising from the prime treatment. Heart problems, bone loss, diabetes, etc, are at high risk for occurrence. The oncologist must be a specialist in drugs administration and very knowledgeable in their limitations and interaction. Nothing should be administered that would prohibit or affect a future treatment for expected occurrences. For instance, anemia is dangerous and kills many PCa patients receiving powerful medication. The immune shot of Tom's protocol may be to avoid such case. Lipids and other particular tests should be planned in the overall care.

    The senior survivor Rakendra above is a model to follow in the fight against PCa. He is always positive and confronts the problem as a reason of etre. His Karma. He has engaged in practices that many here would be against. He proved that steroids can be taken carefully to improve the quality of life in spite of possible being igniting the indolent cancer. He is trying now Hydrogen Peroxide which I see it as a sort of "cleaning" product. It is used in the prevention of tooth decay and as a home remedy. I doubt its benefits in the treatment of PCa. This you tube link conforms my thoughts on the matter;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb0kFCijvg8

     

    Best wishes,

    VGama

  • jullo234
    jullo234 Member Posts: 27
    VGama ,

    VGama ,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to explain what I know little about. I wonder if there are questions I should be asking the doctor next week such as is he doing tests to prevent anemia from occurring..  We will find out soon if he will have four rounds of chemo or six. His appeptite has waned and the only food he seems to like is chicken soup. So I guess chicken soup it will be. He didn't have extra weight on him to begin with so more weight loss needs to be avoided.

    I wonder what impact these drugs are having on his heart . He had a heart attack in his late 30's and is on a few heart medications. I think I will query with the Dr about that .For example do the oncologiat and cardiologist converse about his case? The naturopath oncologist said the heart medications he is on are a dangerous combination to be taking with the HT and chemo.  I'm sure exactly why but I could get the information.

    I will read through your post again in order to better understand it.  When you said no antioxidants , specifically what do you mean by this ? So very thoughtful of you to take such time in helping those tha are less informed.

    Thankyou,

    Julia

     

     

     

  • VascodaGama
    VascodaGama Member Posts: 3,638 Member
    I love chicken soup too

    Julia,

    Antioxidants are beneficial to all cells including the cancerous ones. We need to maintain a "poisonous environment" to those PCa cells suffering the blow of the chemo but not yet dead. Any action that could "revive" or "revitalize" these while on their life cycle will jeopardy in part the benefit of the chemo. Antioxidants are stopped while on treatment and resumed later. Maybe his oncologist will not comment on this.

    Chicken soup is good. Lol

    Best

    VG

  • Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3
    Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3 Member Posts: 3,803 Member
    edited November 2016 #39

    I love chicken soup too

    Julia,

    Antioxidants are beneficial to all cells including the cancerous ones. We need to maintain a "poisonous environment" to those PCa cells suffering the blow of the chemo but not yet dead. Any action that could "revive" or "revitalize" these while on their life cycle will jeopardy in part the benefit of the chemo. Antioxidants are stopped while on treatment and resumed later. Maybe his oncologist will not comment on this.

    Chicken soup is good. Lol

    Best

    VG

    Antioxidants

    At the Lymphoma Board over the last few years antioxidants have been a popular discussion.

    The consensus, and most studies, agree: Discontinue them while on chemo, for the reasons Vasco mentioned. This may seem counterintuitive, but chemo is posion, "cytotoxic" -- literally "tumor-killing."

    A trivia point that illuminates this is that the first-ever chemo agent was developed during World War II (in secret).  Doctors had observed somehow or other that exposure to mustard gas, a blister agent, caused blood chemistry changes that would likely allow leukemia and lymphoma patients to live longer.  So, under controlled application, Mustargen became the world's first chemo drug.  It is still in common use today against leukemia and lymphoma. 

    It is a vesicant, blister agent, like numerous other chemos, and giving it is highly controlled.  I received two vesicant drugs, and they had to be administered via push-pull cylinder, they could not be given via an IV drip.  I asked the RN why, and he said, "If this stuff spills, we have to set up a buffer area, and call DHEC." 

    Bad stuff, against a bad disease. But very effective, and has saved countless lives.

    max

    Nitrogen Mustard as used today:  http://chemocare.com/chemotherapy/drug-info/Mustargen.aspx

     History of development, first by scientists at Yale. Read especially the second full paragraph:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_mustard

    Mustargen is not given against prostate cancer. Taxotere, the most common PCa chemo, is not a vesicant, but is extremely harsh long-term or in large doses.

    Taxotere is also one of the most common chemos agains breast cancer:  http://chemocare.com/chemotherapy/drug-info/Taxotere.aspx

    max

  • Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3
    Max Former Hodgkins Stage 3 Member Posts: 3,803 Member
    jullo234 said:

    VGama ,

    VGama ,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to explain what I know little about. I wonder if there are questions I should be asking the doctor next week such as is he doing tests to prevent anemia from occurring..  We will find out soon if he will have four rounds of chemo or six. His appeptite has waned and the only food he seems to like is chicken soup. So I guess chicken soup it will be. He didn't have extra weight on him to begin with so more weight loss needs to be avoided.

    I wonder what impact these drugs are having on his heart . He had a heart attack in his late 30's and is on a few heart medications. I think I will query with the Dr about that .For example do the oncologiat and cardiologist converse about his case? The naturopath oncologist said the heart medications he is on are a dangerous combination to be taking with the HT and chemo.  I'm sure exactly why but I could get the information.

    I will read through your post again in order to better understand it.  When you said no antioxidants , specifically what do you mean by this ? So very thoughtful of you to take such time in helping those tha are less informed.

    Thankyou,

    Julia

     

     

     

    Heart

    Jullo,

    A few chemo drugs potentially have cardiac side-effects. The most famous of these is Adriamycin (also known as Doxorubicin; Rubex), which is not given against PCa, that I have ever heard of at least.  Taxotere (the main PCa chemo) does not have heart damage as a known or routine side-effect.

    ALL medical oncologists I've ever met or read about are also board certified in internal medicine, and these things are reviewed and flagged for interactions, but DO ASK.  The link to Taxotere in the post below gives as a warning to not take Herbal Supplements, or at least to clear them with the oncologst.

    ALL chemos stress the body nonetheless.  Most, if not all, clinics planning to administer chemo test the patient for cardiac issues, at least an EKG or more, to determne if the patient is well enough to withstand chemo. Not every person is well enough. The Institute where I received care required that every patient undergo a baseline EKG and baseline Lung function test.

    max 

  • jullo234
    jullo234 Member Posts: 27
    4th round

    Thank you VG , Max and others for your feedback. On Wed Tom goes for fourth round of chemo , hormone , and Xgeva. There is a possibility that he will need 6 rounds of chemo and not 4. I believe that after this round there will be a bone scan to see how effective the treatment has been. My question to you is , do you know what I should be asking the doctor on Wed? This is the first time in about 6 weeks that he will be seeing the Dr and I don't want to miss an opportunity to ask questions that could be helpful. Obviously the chemo has taken a toll but Tom continues to be up for all of the morning and then rests in the Aftn. He keeps himself busy with projects and maintains a positive frame of mind ...

    Julia