“Is the Immune System Really the Answer to Fighting Cancer?”

135

Comments

  • janderson1964
    janderson1964 Member Posts: 2,215 Member
    smokeyjoe said:

    I know with me, most of the
    I know with me, most of the supplements I'm trying they have tried on mice in the lab and for whatever reason it has interfered with the cancer growth or spread....I'm of course trying to boost my immune system with good things...but my approach is mostly to somehow try and interfere with mets.....like the cimitidine along with herbals I'm trying. Whether they work or not on me, who knows.....I know I'd rather be doing this than sitting in a chemo. chair...so far so good, for how long, who knows. Livin scan to scan sucks!! Tomorrow I have surgeon appt., only if this last scan was good would he consider a colonoscopy....so I suppose that's probably a go now. If colonscopy finds something what then?? Does turmeric turn your insides orange??? Or I may be died green from the veggie greens....guess I'll know if I hear someone go "WTF"!!!

    Smokey Joe. My approach is
    Smokey Joe. My approach is similar to yours. My diet is based on herbs and vegetables that can fight cancer. I take tumeric as well. I also juice carrots ginger kale and vrow my own wheat grass which i juice as well. I make tea from phellenus lingus mushrooms (not sure about spelling). I have found studies on all of these from cancer centers that indicate they can fight colon cancer. Some such as the mushrooms can cause apoptosis (cell suicide). Tumeric has also been shown to enhance 5FU. Doing all of this along with exercise. Helps my state of mind whichcan also be effective.
  • John23
    John23 Member Posts: 2,122 Member
    PhillieG said:

    Thanks John
    I'm not a fan of "prejudiced thinking" either.
    That's why I don't put down/discount any treatment options, especially those I haven't tried.
    -p

    "A healthy attitude is contagious but don't wait to catch it from others. Be a carrier"

    Thank you, Phil!

    I appreciate you pointing out my prejudices..... (?)

    Re:
    "That's why I don't put down/discount any treatment options,
    especially those I haven't tried. -p"


    You are right, Phil. I never tried chemotherapy! Which ones
    are you suggesting I start with?

    But please allow me to remind you:

    One needn't stick their hands into red-hot burning coals to
    understand the pain and damage that can occur.

    While chemical therapy and radiation may be of great benefit
    to quickly stop a cancerous tumor from killing the patient, its
    arbitrary use to kill single rogue cancer cells is more damaging
    than it is worth.

    I am not at odds with the entire system, Phil. I am at odds
    with the arbitrary overuse of therapies that were not intended
    to be used in the manner they presently are being used.

    And to that extent Phil, there -are- much better choices to fight
    cancer with.

    When individuals refuse to explore and learn about any modality
    that may actually save their life, it frustrates me.

    Most of us simply do not have the time to continue stubborn
    prejudices. There is an abundance of information available
    regarding Traditional Chinese Medicine; it takes so little
    to learn about it's merits.

    And Phil..... Even if an individual does not use TCM for their
    attempt to stifle cancer, TCM is still able to be of great merit
    for remaining healthy during the rigorous treatments of chemo
    and radiation.

    It is for that reason that TCM is presently being used along with
    conventional western medicine cancer treatments.

    What more proof and validity is required, than it's use by the
    leading institutions?

    I can't speak for the other "alternatives", but I do know what
    TCM is capable of, and it is extraordinary!

    Stay well my friend,

    John
  • PhillieG
    PhillieG Member Posts: 4,866 Member
    John23 said:

    Thank you, Phil!

    I appreciate you pointing out my prejudices..... (?)

    Re:
    "That's why I don't put down/discount any treatment options,
    especially those I haven't tried. -p"


    You are right, Phil. I never tried chemotherapy! Which ones
    are you suggesting I start with?

    But please allow me to remind you:

    One needn't stick their hands into red-hot burning coals to
    understand the pain and damage that can occur.

    While chemical therapy and radiation may be of great benefit
    to quickly stop a cancerous tumor from killing the patient, its
    arbitrary use to kill single rogue cancer cells is more damaging
    than it is worth.

    I am not at odds with the entire system, Phil. I am at odds
    with the arbitrary overuse of therapies that were not intended
    to be used in the manner they presently are being used.

    And to that extent Phil, there -are- much better choices to fight
    cancer with.

    When individuals refuse to explore and learn about any modality
    that may actually save their life, it frustrates me.

    Most of us simply do not have the time to continue stubborn
    prejudices. There is an abundance of information available
    regarding Traditional Chinese Medicine; it takes so little
    to learn about it's merits.

    And Phil..... Even if an individual does not use TCM for their
    attempt to stifle cancer, TCM is still able to be of great merit
    for remaining healthy during the rigorous treatments of chemo
    and radiation.

    It is for that reason that TCM is presently being used along with
    conventional western medicine cancer treatments.

    What more proof and validity is required, than it's use by the
    leading institutions?

    I can't speak for the other "alternatives", but I do know what
    TCM is capable of, and it is extraordinary!

    Stay well my friend,

    John

    Not a Problem John
    But I am surprised at myself. After years of this I still think that you just might say something positive about western medicine/chemo but alas, you can't. I am sorry you got hosed by your surgeons, I can (almost) understand your distain for it all.

    Your comment "And Phil..... Even if an individual does not use TCM for their attempt to stifle cancer, TCM is still able to be of great merit for remaining healthy during the rigorous treatments of chemo and radiation."
    I've never doubted the benefits of TCM, I very often if not always include that in my responses to people seeking advice on what to do. There's no one size fits all.

    But this classic "Overall, cancer (all types of cancer combined), has a 25% survival rate. That statistic has not changed in nearly 40 years. Stage four colon cancer is usually considered to provide us with a 2% survival rate. Diagnosis is being made earlier thanks to modern technology, but medical treatment (chemo, etc) has not advanced enough to be of serious value." is priceless!

    Your opinions and "facts" apparently spring from the same place...thin air.
    (Many people who are here thanks to chemo might disagree with your opinion on the advancement of modern technology and chemo.)

    I know you can't speak for other "alternatives" but you certainly do speak volumes on chemo.

    Don't ever change my friend...
    -phil
    "A healthy attitude is contagious but don't wait to catch it from others. Be a carrier"
  • Nana b
    Nana b Member Posts: 3,030 Member
    tanstaafl said:

    timing counts, too
    Lisa42 started her naturopathic program after over 3 years of chemo and radiation. Her immune system was already highly compromised for years. The best time for supplements may be day 1 for several reasons. First your immune system is less damaged, for various common deficiencies like vitamin D3 "sooner should be better", the tumor cells less evolved or disturbed, and for colon cancer, there is no neoadjuvant (presurgery chemo) planned as well for several weeks after surgery.

    My wife was physically debilitated and nutrient deficient from 3-4 weeks illness and wasting, pre diagnosis. For my wife, she got a 4 week, pre-surgery "trial period" that yielded visible results that we liked immensely, with one major area of tumor necrosis from massive granulocytic attack (wiped out, all the surgeons consulted expect peritoneal carcinomatosis or unspecified pessimism) as well as shrinkage of the primary. And rapid wound healing with minimal opiates for pain (morphine thrown out early on).

    What did Lisa42 get so late in the game? Looked to me like she was able to extend her Xeloda-gemcitabine treatments by 4-5-6 months and also improved her quality of life even longer.

    I am a little critical of most naturopathic treatment levels because they are often about 1/10 to 1/4 of doses that I see in the original scientific or medical papers on supplements and off label treatments observed with improvement, "full bore". Of course there are reasons, to back off a little, to varying degrees. I suspect that Lisa's supplemental program was likely "low dose" by such measures in the original papers, and less complete than some. However, Lisa wasn't able to identify its composition to us.

    Requiescat in pace, Lisa. We miss you so much.

    Interesting reading. I even
    Interesting reading. I even shut off American idol to get this in before bed time.

    Chemo screwed up my feet, my body, my youth, but I am still here.
    Supplements I have tried and stopped. Possible reoccurrence after 2.5 years. I will know more next week. I don't want to do start chemo again. I may just say zap it and just continue with my mostly vegan meals.

    I had my scan today. Thought I would switch it around and just pray the whole time I was resting, for a miracle.
    We shall see.

    All I can do fo myself is try and stay healthy and not be a sitting duck, or fish. Got to keep moving.


    http://www.youtube.com/embed/nA3LtXnNIto?feature=player_embedded&fb_source=message
  • thingy45
    thingy45 Member Posts: 632 Member
    Nana b said:

    Interesting reading. I even
    Interesting reading. I even shut off American idol to get this in before bed time.

    Chemo screwed up my feet, my body, my youth, but I am still here.
    Supplements I have tried and stopped. Possible reoccurrence after 2.5 years. I will know more next week. I don't want to do start chemo again. I may just say zap it and just continue with my mostly vegan meals.

    I had my scan today. Thought I would switch it around and just pray the whole time I was resting, for a miracle.
    We shall see.

    All I can do fo myself is try and stay healthy and not be a sitting duck, or fish. Got to keep moving.


    http://www.youtube.com/embed/nA3LtXnNIto?feature=player_embedded&fb_source=message

    fantastic read
    Thanks Craig for this enormous good topic. I have stayed up to read to the end of the discussions and found trues in all the posts. Nothing is proven, we all are genetically different and some methods might work for one but not for another.
    Normal medicine works for awhile, but it is mainly poisinous, as far as I understand. Read the side effects alone. The cure often couses other problems.
    So what to believe?

    TCM is herbs so all natural something like organic. But if it grows in contaminated soil , re airpolution and poluted water?
    Before normal medicine we only had herbs.

    I don't feel that immune systems have anything to do with our cancers. I very seldom had flues or colds etc, but I nearly died of misdiagnosed colon cancer.

    Our food has a lot to do with it and whatever road we choose, we DO have to eat and the cncer causing particals are in the food. It really does not make any difference.
    The cancer causing particals are in the air and our water.
    Cancer is deffinately in genes, often cancers run in families.
    The one thing we all have incommon is our FOOD.
    this is my opinion ofcourse.

    Read the toothpaste label and the shampoo, soap labels cleaning materials etc etc.
    I try to keep my colon as clean as possible and try not to irritade so inflammation might occour.
    So I do not have to choose again for any form of treatment.Be it TCM or chemo/radiation. Both are available and it would be MY choice.

    Very interesting read and topic. Thanks Craig.
    Marjan
  • ron50
    ron50 Member Posts: 1,723 Member
    I have one major concern about this post
    Where is Blake,I'm serious.It's the sort of mental stimulation he enjoys and is good at. I am genuinely concerned by his abcense. Can someone give him a call to see if he is ok? Ron.
  • janderson1964
    janderson1964 Member Posts: 2,215 Member
    ron50 said:

    I have one major concern about this post
    Where is Blake,I'm serious.It's the sort of mental stimulation he enjoys and is good at. I am genuinely concerned by his abcense. Can someone give him a call to see if he is ok? Ron.

    I am concerned too. I was
    I am concerned too. I was just thinking about him.
  • Sundanceh
    Sundanceh Member Posts: 4,392 Member
    ron50 said:

    I have one major concern about this post
    Where is Blake,I'm serious.It's the sort of mental stimulation he enjoys and is good at. I am genuinely concerned by his abcense. Can someone give him a call to see if he is ok? Ron.

    Touche, Ron!
    Where is Blake?

    You're right, this is the sort of mental fodder Blake likes - as stupid as I am, I can't keep coming up with this stuff every year...I'm running out of things to say, lol:)

    I hope he will join the discussion....this is right up his alley...I figured he'd like this one too.

    A post was opened for Blake to see how he was - but I don't believe he has seen it. I hope nothing has turned for him...he's had quite a ride this year.

    -Craig
  • Sundanceh
    Sundanceh Member Posts: 4,392 Member

    I am looking forward to
    I am looking forward to resting with you. The irrinotecan is really beating the HELL out of me. I hate it but is hard to know when to stp since it is all such a big guessing game.

    I get the "HE Double Hockey Sticks", Jeff...

    In fact, as bad as it was for me, "Hell wouldn't have been a bad place to be", as AC/DC used to sing.

    Looking forward to your chemo retirement party:)

    Your pal just up the road...

    -Craig
  • John23
    John23 Member Posts: 2,122 Member
    Sundanceh said:

    Hey John
    "The 5-Bones" is retail....after all of the negotiated rates and discounts, my bill should be considerably less than that, fortunately.

    I was in there for a routine off-scan consult to check bloodwork, physical exam and general what's up.

    I decided to at least take the opportunity to discuss this topic and get his official input. Which is what it was - I did not go seek and setup a consult for the sole purpose of asking this question.

    "For the record.... I do not subscribe any of the many "alternatives"
    being sold and used by health conscious individuals. They all seem
    to be revenue harvesting products and practices, and most without
    serious merit biologically or historically."

    This was pretty much the gist of the message - the merit was something he mentioned. If it couldn't hurt, one could do it - but he did not ascribe to doing it - and does not want to put me on any of it.

    We ran out of time as he was already late for hospital rounds when we sat down, so I did not get the opportunity to discuss TCM, but he said he might email with his opinion...if he does not, I'll catch him in a couple of months when we scan again and do another follow-up consult. I'd be curious as to what he has to say.

    I'm rapidly becoming one of those people where "fear about death" from cancer does not have a hold of me like many others, at this point in my journey. I'm getting close to a mindset where I would actually "Welcome" death.

    So, I'm not driven by fear to try this and try that...and I'm not out throwing money around chasing after and fighting windmills....I leave that for others.

    What I have done is, I have fought a convential WM fight - through skilled surgeons and their staff, I have achieved more years than I should have gotten. The results have extended my life and kept the ball in play.

    Chemo, while I rail about it, has undoubtedly had some effect on keeping my cancer in check and in short periods of remission. Radiation has been the heavy hammer of insurance that supposedly seals the deal.

    I will read the link that you provided...my oncologist is not a stupid man and is highly respected at our NCI Cancer Institute. He may not be as vaunted or well-known as some other national oncologists, but so far, we have kep all four of my wheels on the road.

    I celebrate 8-years of survival in June 2012 - and it's hard to argue with that.

    Good health to you as well:)

    -Craig

    I'm enjoying the thread, Craig!

    I still have trouble understanding why your Oncologist feels
    that the immune system has little (if anything) to do with the
    occurrence of cancer, or with the fight against cancer.

    On any medication designed to stifle one's immune system
    (methotrexate; all arthritis prescriptions) carry a warning
    that it is an immunosuppressant and can open the door to
    infections and cancer.

    It's almost a "no-brainer" to assume that a weakened
    immune system will compromise one's overall health and
    leave one vulnerable to the most serious of ailments,
    including cancer.

    Incidentally, in TCM, western medicine's blood tests -do not-
    tell the whole story; the immune system is a bit more complicated
    than just having enough white and red cells. An individual can
    have a compromised immune system while having great sounding
    blood tests. The diagnostics used by the TCM physician is unlike
    the diagnostics used in western medicine, and goes much deeper
    into one's entire health situation.

    There is a growing belief that cancer starts in everyone's body
    at one time or another, but the immune system usually removes
    that defective cell before it becomes a serious problem.

    Some of us have an immune system that ignored the errant
    cell (for whatever reason) and that cell began using the fermentation
    process for it's life support. The fermentation process is the very
    basic reason for a cancer cell's existence; it is the very basic
    beginning of the transformation from a good cell, to a rogue cell.

    The damaged cell has no brain, no intelligence; it can't out-think
    your body or drugs, and it can no longer take orders from your
    brain or body.

    What it can do (and without thought or preamble), is automatically
    begin survival by using fermentation. That basic process takes
    no choices, it simply happens; it part of nature.

    The cancer cell may or may not uptake more glucose for it's
    survival than surrounding normal cells, so using present-day
    diagnostics or treatments do not see single cells. The immune
    system however, is perfectly capable of isolating and removing
    single, defective cells!

    So here we are today, reading about the newest "nano-technology"
    that is attempting to do what the immune system is best at doing,
    yet very little "donations" are used for the advancement for
    the betterment of our own natural defense of cancer.

    You don't suppose that the profit margin; the proverbial "bottom line"
    of corporate revenue, is what sends the billions invested in fancy
    "new technology" rather than a natural and free solution?

    (I'm too cynical, right?) (where IS Blake??)

    In my opinion (along with some oncologists and biologists),
    the immune system is where the attention should be directed
    if we desire to make cancer a thing of the past.

    A healthy immune system may not prevent a damaged cell from
    beginning the fermentation process (cancer), but once the
    system becomes sensitized to the chemicals of a cancer cell,
    a healthy system will be able to do what it was originally
    intended to do = remove the defective cell(s).

    My bottom line, Craig, is that the immune system is the key
    to survival and should be made as healthy as possible. And not
    simply "healthy" by blood-test standards.

    TCM seeks to accomplish that, while western medicine does not.

    There -are- better ways to be healthy, than taking chemically
    produced pills.

    Please stay well, we need you here!

    John
  • toyfox
    toyfox Member Posts: 158 Member
    Nana b said:

    Interesting reading. I even
    Interesting reading. I even shut off American idol to get this in before bed time.

    Chemo screwed up my feet, my body, my youth, but I am still here.
    Supplements I have tried and stopped. Possible reoccurrence after 2.5 years. I will know more next week. I don't want to do start chemo again. I may just say zap it and just continue with my mostly vegan meals.

    I had my scan today. Thought I would switch it around and just pray the whole time I was resting, for a miracle.
    We shall see.

    All I can do fo myself is try and stay healthy and not be a sitting duck, or fish. Got to keep moving.


    http://www.youtube.com/embed/nA3LtXnNIto?feature=player_embedded&fb_source=message

    link for video
    Thanks for the link.
    The pictures are awesome.
    Praying for good results on your scan.
    Linda
  • here4lfe
    here4lfe Member Posts: 306 Member
    John23 said:

    I'm enjoying the thread, Craig!

    I still have trouble understanding why your Oncologist feels
    that the immune system has little (if anything) to do with the
    occurrence of cancer, or with the fight against cancer.

    On any medication designed to stifle one's immune system
    (methotrexate; all arthritis prescriptions) carry a warning
    that it is an immunosuppressant and can open the door to
    infections and cancer.

    It's almost a "no-brainer" to assume that a weakened
    immune system will compromise one's overall health and
    leave one vulnerable to the most serious of ailments,
    including cancer.

    Incidentally, in TCM, western medicine's blood tests -do not-
    tell the whole story; the immune system is a bit more complicated
    than just having enough white and red cells. An individual can
    have a compromised immune system while having great sounding
    blood tests. The diagnostics used by the TCM physician is unlike
    the diagnostics used in western medicine, and goes much deeper
    into one's entire health situation.

    There is a growing belief that cancer starts in everyone's body
    at one time or another, but the immune system usually removes
    that defective cell before it becomes a serious problem.

    Some of us have an immune system that ignored the errant
    cell (for whatever reason) and that cell began using the fermentation
    process for it's life support. The fermentation process is the very
    basic reason for a cancer cell's existence; it is the very basic
    beginning of the transformation from a good cell, to a rogue cell.

    The damaged cell has no brain, no intelligence; it can't out-think
    your body or drugs, and it can no longer take orders from your
    brain or body.

    What it can do (and without thought or preamble), is automatically
    begin survival by using fermentation. That basic process takes
    no choices, it simply happens; it part of nature.

    The cancer cell may or may not uptake more glucose for it's
    survival than surrounding normal cells, so using present-day
    diagnostics or treatments do not see single cells. The immune
    system however, is perfectly capable of isolating and removing
    single, defective cells!

    So here we are today, reading about the newest "nano-technology"
    that is attempting to do what the immune system is best at doing,
    yet very little "donations" are used for the advancement for
    the betterment of our own natural defense of cancer.

    You don't suppose that the profit margin; the proverbial "bottom line"
    of corporate revenue, is what sends the billions invested in fancy
    "new technology" rather than a natural and free solution?

    (I'm too cynical, right?) (where IS Blake??)

    In my opinion (along with some oncologists and biologists),
    the immune system is where the attention should be directed
    if we desire to make cancer a thing of the past.

    A healthy immune system may not prevent a damaged cell from
    beginning the fermentation process (cancer), but once the
    system becomes sensitized to the chemicals of a cancer cell,
    a healthy system will be able to do what it was originally
    intended to do = remove the defective cell(s).

    My bottom line, Craig, is that the immune system is the key
    to survival and should be made as healthy as possible. And not
    simply "healthy" by blood-test standards.

    TCM seeks to accomplish that, while western medicine does not.

    There -are- better ways to be healthy, than taking chemically
    produced pills.

    Please stay well, we need you here!

    John

    I know I shouldn't butt in
    The oncologist logic to me is sound. If cancer is a problem at the molecular DNA level, where the DNA itself is damaged, the immune system does not 'kick-in'. The immune system is not designed to attack it's own cells, and when it does it's not good (auto-immune diseases).
    I agree though, that while a strong healthy immune system might not help the fight against cancer (at least not yet), at least you won't die from some normally benign infection.
    As a trekkie, I often wondered if the transporter could, in the process of re-assembly, clean the reconstructed body of unhealthy cells. Hmmm ... you heard it here first !

    Best
  • Sundanceh
    Sundanceh Member Posts: 4,392 Member
    here4lfe said:

    I know I shouldn't butt in
    The oncologist logic to me is sound. If cancer is a problem at the molecular DNA level, where the DNA itself is damaged, the immune system does not 'kick-in'. The immune system is not designed to attack it's own cells, and when it does it's not good (auto-immune diseases).
    I agree though, that while a strong healthy immune system might not help the fight against cancer (at least not yet), at least you won't die from some normally benign infection.
    As a trekkie, I often wondered if the transporter could, in the process of re-assembly, clean the reconstructed body of unhealthy cells. Hmmm ... you heard it here first !

    Best

    "Love the Trek"
    Your opinion is always welcome on this thread:) I'm enjoying the conversation and opinions shared among the community...it's good stuff.

    I found his opinion interesting and he's a big researcher and has published many medical papers...I read a couple of them...it will make your eyes glaze over, deep stuff. His conclusion was that we can't supercharge the immune system to do anymore than it could originally do in the first place.

    And he placed the cancer with the division of cells when they replicate...the thing there that really fascinated me was that our cells carry our life history. So, at whatever age we are, that age is carried forth to the next cell...it's a brand new cell but carries your entire life history with it. That was really something I had never considered...I figured new is new...but it's "New With Our Life History."

    And what we could all use right now is a "Bones McCoy" to wave his Tri-corder over and help us..."Physician - heal thyself."

    In one of the movies, Star Trek IV, there is a woman in the hospital suffering kidney damage. He stops to talk with her in the hall and asks here what's wrong - she say she needed dialysis. He muttered, "Dialysis...$#@!"....and gave her a pill.

    A few minutes later, the doctors had run scans and were in amazement - she had grown a new kidney from the pill!!!

    Now, that's the kind of medical technology from the 23rd century that we could all use in the 21st...where is our modern-day "Bones" when we need him?

    "Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer!" ~Leonard "Bones" McCoy

    I was watching this TV show as a 5-year old in 1966...I was going where few little boys "had gone before..." Pretty heady stuff for that age...and I understood what was happening. I didn't spend my time with Barney and SpongeBob:)

    Thanks for your post - my onc's opinion is cancer is right there at the division process but what polices and sweeps clean bad cells and what allows them to proliferate will no doubt be at debate for some time.

    The key is there - but how do we unlock the mystery?

    -Craig
  • Sundanceh
    Sundanceh Member Posts: 4,392 Member
    John23 said:

    I'm enjoying the thread, Craig!

    I still have trouble understanding why your Oncologist feels
    that the immune system has little (if anything) to do with the
    occurrence of cancer, or with the fight against cancer.

    On any medication designed to stifle one's immune system
    (methotrexate; all arthritis prescriptions) carry a warning
    that it is an immunosuppressant and can open the door to
    infections and cancer.

    It's almost a "no-brainer" to assume that a weakened
    immune system will compromise one's overall health and
    leave one vulnerable to the most serious of ailments,
    including cancer.

    Incidentally, in TCM, western medicine's blood tests -do not-
    tell the whole story; the immune system is a bit more complicated
    than just having enough white and red cells. An individual can
    have a compromised immune system while having great sounding
    blood tests. The diagnostics used by the TCM physician is unlike
    the diagnostics used in western medicine, and goes much deeper
    into one's entire health situation.

    There is a growing belief that cancer starts in everyone's body
    at one time or another, but the immune system usually removes
    that defective cell before it becomes a serious problem.

    Some of us have an immune system that ignored the errant
    cell (for whatever reason) and that cell began using the fermentation
    process for it's life support. The fermentation process is the very
    basic reason for a cancer cell's existence; it is the very basic
    beginning of the transformation from a good cell, to a rogue cell.

    The damaged cell has no brain, no intelligence; it can't out-think
    your body or drugs, and it can no longer take orders from your
    brain or body.

    What it can do (and without thought or preamble), is automatically
    begin survival by using fermentation. That basic process takes
    no choices, it simply happens; it part of nature.

    The cancer cell may or may not uptake more glucose for it's
    survival than surrounding normal cells, so using present-day
    diagnostics or treatments do not see single cells. The immune
    system however, is perfectly capable of isolating and removing
    single, defective cells!

    So here we are today, reading about the newest "nano-technology"
    that is attempting to do what the immune system is best at doing,
    yet very little "donations" are used for the advancement for
    the betterment of our own natural defense of cancer.

    You don't suppose that the profit margin; the proverbial "bottom line"
    of corporate revenue, is what sends the billions invested in fancy
    "new technology" rather than a natural and free solution?

    (I'm too cynical, right?) (where IS Blake??)

    In my opinion (along with some oncologists and biologists),
    the immune system is where the attention should be directed
    if we desire to make cancer a thing of the past.

    A healthy immune system may not prevent a damaged cell from
    beginning the fermentation process (cancer), but once the
    system becomes sensitized to the chemicals of a cancer cell,
    a healthy system will be able to do what it was originally
    intended to do = remove the defective cell(s).

    My bottom line, Craig, is that the immune system is the key
    to survival and should be made as healthy as possible. And not
    simply "healthy" by blood-test standards.

    TCM seeks to accomplish that, while western medicine does not.

    There -are- better ways to be healthy, than taking chemically
    produced pills.

    Please stay well, we need you here!

    John

    Me Too, John - I'm Lovin' It:)
    It is interesting about what you said about "having a comprimised immune system", while pegging cleanly on bloodwork...no doubt, this is where I'm at right now. My immune system has been hammered, no question about that. WBC's and Platelets are not normal, though the white count is just off about .3 or .4 from the low end of normal.

    Platelets are 75,000 down from the low end...they are a casualty of the war...I saw some old bloodwork when I got started and it was like in the 220's before I started Folfox....that platinum mess did a number on me.

    So, I'm compromised, but still able to fight off most infections and my system is still capable of fighting cancer...it's one of cancer's interesting dichotomies and I agree with you, that there is certainly more to learn and understand here.

    Why my onc feels like that I don't know...he didn't discount the immune system - he just said we can't supercharge it to be anymore than what it is. He does say that the body can sometimes control it - and sometimes can't. I'm sure he was referring to the immune system's role there.

    But, he firmly believes the issue at hand is in the "copying machine" and having to transfer a lifetime of data down to each new cell everywhere in the body - a monumental task to be sure...you know how long it takes to login to this site sometimes...and we get "Server Down With Too Much Load."

    I imagine it is something along those lines...certainly seems plausible. But anyway, whatever causes that copier to get out of sync and begin producing bad or rogue cells is where the answer lies - in whatever form or modality will correct that process.

    I found your post and insight very interesting and I appreciate you joining and contributing on this thread - it's great to be able to sit down with one another and talk about all of this in a conversational manner...I was hoping we would get some hits and discussion - and I have not been disappointed.

    Thank you for your last line..."Please be well. We need you here!"

    I had to do a double-take, LOL! That's quite the compliment and it does mean alot. I dig it here and want everyone of us to be here - just talking and being together - and learning and sharing. I need you guys here too - the room would be a little more lonely without you and the others here too.

    Thanks again, John!

    BTW, I hope to see Blake on this post at some point as well - then the circle will be complete:)

    -Craig
  • Sundanceh
    Sundanceh Member Posts: 4,392 Member
    tanstaafl said:

    timing counts, too
    Lisa42 started her naturopathic program after over 3 years of chemo and radiation. Her immune system was already highly compromised for years. The best time for supplements may be day 1 for several reasons. First your immune system is less damaged, for various common deficiencies like vitamin D3 "sooner should be better", the tumor cells less evolved or disturbed, and for colon cancer, there is no neoadjuvant (presurgery chemo) planned as well for several weeks after surgery.

    My wife was physically debilitated and nutrient deficient from 3-4 weeks illness and wasting, pre diagnosis. For my wife, she got a 4 week, pre-surgery "trial period" that yielded visible results that we liked immensely, with one major area of tumor necrosis from massive granulocytic attack (wiped out, all the surgeons consulted expect peritoneal carcinomatosis or unspecified pessimism) as well as shrinkage of the primary. And rapid wound healing with minimal opiates for pain (morphine thrown out early on).

    What did Lisa42 get so late in the game? Looked to me like she was able to extend her Xeloda-gemcitabine treatments by 4-5-6 months and also improved her quality of life even longer.

    I am a little critical of most naturopathic treatment levels because they are often about 1/10 to 1/4 of doses that I see in the original scientific or medical papers on supplements and off label treatments observed with improvement, "full bore". Of course there are reasons, to back off a little, to varying degrees. I suspect that Lisa's supplemental program was likely "low dose" by such measures in the original papers, and less complete than some. However, Lisa wasn't able to identify its composition to us.

    Requiescat in pace, Lisa. We miss you so much.

    Hey Tans...
    Just wanted to thank you for your post. I know you are pretty versed on the X's and O's and i wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for all the information that you have posted with regards to treatment for your wife. I read them and have been listening.

    Lisa was hindered by the fact that she could not qualify for surgery - which no doubt would have extended her time. How much we don't know? But, regardless of strength of what she was taking...I just don't enough about that, I know that she was a proponent for trying everything - and it looked like everything to me.

    Like you and so many others, I miss her presence on this forum.

    -Craig
  • Sundanceh
    Sundanceh Member Posts: 4,392 Member
    Nana b said:

    Interesting reading. I even
    Interesting reading. I even shut off American idol to get this in before bed time.

    Chemo screwed up my feet, my body, my youth, but I am still here.
    Supplements I have tried and stopped. Possible reoccurrence after 2.5 years. I will know more next week. I don't want to do start chemo again. I may just say zap it and just continue with my mostly vegan meals.

    I had my scan today. Thought I would switch it around and just pray the whole time I was resting, for a miracle.
    We shall see.

    All I can do fo myself is try and stay healthy and not be a sitting duck, or fish. Got to keep moving.


    http://www.youtube.com/embed/nA3LtXnNIto?feature=player_embedded&fb_source=message

    Howdy Raquel
    I had hoped you would "tune in" to this post as well. I was curious to see what you had to say. You turned off American Idol? Wow - too cool, this has been an interesting thread with alot of good responses. I've enjoyed reading them and it's certainly been an investment of my time seeing what everyone thinks.

    Good luck on your scans - hope the news is promising:)

    -Craig
  • Sundanceh
    Sundanceh Member Posts: 4,392 Member
    thingy45 said:

    fantastic read
    Thanks Craig for this enormous good topic. I have stayed up to read to the end of the discussions and found trues in all the posts. Nothing is proven, we all are genetically different and some methods might work for one but not for another.
    Normal medicine works for awhile, but it is mainly poisinous, as far as I understand. Read the side effects alone. The cure often couses other problems.
    So what to believe?

    TCM is herbs so all natural something like organic. But if it grows in contaminated soil , re airpolution and poluted water?
    Before normal medicine we only had herbs.

    I don't feel that immune systems have anything to do with our cancers. I very seldom had flues or colds etc, but I nearly died of misdiagnosed colon cancer.

    Our food has a lot to do with it and whatever road we choose, we DO have to eat and the cncer causing particals are in the food. It really does not make any difference.
    The cancer causing particals are in the air and our water.
    Cancer is deffinately in genes, often cancers run in families.
    The one thing we all have incommon is our FOOD.
    this is my opinion ofcourse.

    Read the toothpaste label and the shampoo, soap labels cleaning materials etc etc.
    I try to keep my colon as clean as possible and try not to irritade so inflammation might occour.
    So I do not have to choose again for any form of treatment.Be it TCM or chemo/radiation. Both are available and it would be MY choice.

    Very interesting read and topic. Thanks Craig.
    Marjan

    Marjan:)
    So glad you stayed up to read the thread - good one, huh? Genetics seems to be the source of the issue - we are only as good as the source.

    Which reminds me of a story - decades ago, I used to sell stereo equipment and TVs and whatnot. Folks would come in and spend alot of money on a good receiver, turntable, speakers etc. etc....BUT they would skimp on the quality of the cassette tape or the needle stylus to play the records (LPs)...okay, I'm dating myself...I loved my wax.

    We used to tell them, the sound that we can reproduce is only as good as the SOURCE. Meaning you could buy the most expensive turntable with the absolute cheapest needle - and as a result the music you heard would only be as good as the specs in the cheapest or most expensive needle.

    That's a pretty good analogy I think on this topic...we can't change what are at the core of our existence - The Source. That type of science and methodology will never change.

    I'm glad you liked this piece - I liked the way it was written - now if only Reader's Digest will only send me my $50 check...LOL!

    Thank you!

    -Craig
  • tanstaafl
    tanstaafl Member Posts: 1,313 Member
    Sundanceh said:

    Hey Tans...
    Just wanted to thank you for your post. I know you are pretty versed on the X's and O's and i wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for all the information that you have posted with regards to treatment for your wife. I read them and have been listening.

    Lisa was hindered by the fact that she could not qualify for surgery - which no doubt would have extended her time. How much we don't know? But, regardless of strength of what she was taking...I just don't enough about that, I know that she was a proponent for trying everything - and it looked like everything to me.

    Like you and so many others, I miss her presence on this forum.

    -Craig

    more important kinds, and sooner
    Biochemical entity wise, Lisa was still a ways from "everything", and again sooner is better.

    ...Lisa was hindered by the fact that she could not qualify for surgery
    One of the aspects of what we are doing applied earlier and more broadly, is that it should change the "rules of operability". If you can reasonably stop or reduce metastasis indefinitely and metastatic risks from surgery itself, the rationale for surgery expands into many currently inoperable cases.
  • This comment has been removed by the Moderator
  • danker
    danker Member Posts: 1,276 Member
    Sundanceh said:

    Hi Tina...
    Thank you for posting. Even after all of these years I've been fighting, it seems like the more I think I know - I find out I know "Less and Less - About More and More."

    :)

    I'm glad that George is still with us - he's done very well with his plan. I'm glad that he got to retire and spend good quality time with you. That's the thing that's on my mind now and sort of what I want....to retire or be retired by cancer.

    More of my days could then be spent pursuing life - I've missed so much of it already - I just blinked and it's all gone by....the last 12-years for me and Kim have just been a blur with time speeding around us like it's the Daytona 500 or something....

    I just can't slow it down...

    We all reach our own conclusions - and since we're all different, there will be many outcomes, good and bad. Where we each line up is "luck of the draw" sometimes, it sure seems.

    What works for one - doesn't work for another...and it's the same analogy regardless of the topic.

    I'm glad to see you:) Give George my best!

    -Craig

    Craig
    Love your comment about 12 years slipping away. Before he died at age 87, my father said" It seems like Christmas comes every month." As survivors we should relish evry day no matter what it"s like. I tell my children they wouldn"t recognize the good days if they didn"t have the not-so-good to compare them to. I wish you many more good days