Non smoker-non drinker issue

2

Comments

  • RogerRN43
    RogerRN43 Member Posts: 185
    Going back to Sue's
    Going back to Sue's questions, HNSCC is rare, blame it on one's genetics and carcinogenic or irritative agents to the oral mucosa, it's hard to pinpoint exact causes. It's more clear when it's a lifetime of smoking, when it's not, perhaps exposure to chemicals, HPV (like cervical), or genetic makeup like Dawn's Fanconi. If one has quit for some time, who knows? Maybe the damage is already done, and the immune system is just keeping that switch from being turned on until later in life when the immunity weakens.

    I don't believe in conspiracy, I believe there are clear demonstrated relationships.

    In terms of treatment, the questions are barely asked maybe because it does not change the way it's treated, not yet anyway (they are starting to think less intense treatment for HPV+). The doctors' goal is to eradicate and cure so it doesn't matter to them how it got there unless that is part of their research.

    In a youtube video where a prominent HN specialist talks about survivorship, he says patients should stop smoking AND drinking. I have also read the same, and in some cases to the extreme of avoiding any future irritation, like carbonated pop. But I think we are getting into quality of life if one enjoys a drink once in a while. What's the point of living so cautiously from hence on, if you can't enjoy it?
  • Irishgypsie
    Irishgypsie Member Posts: 333
    RogerRN43 said:

    Going back to Sue's
    Going back to Sue's questions, HNSCC is rare, blame it on one's genetics and carcinogenic or irritative agents to the oral mucosa, it's hard to pinpoint exact causes. It's more clear when it's a lifetime of smoking, when it's not, perhaps exposure to chemicals, HPV (like cervical), or genetic makeup like Dawn's Fanconi. If one has quit for some time, who knows? Maybe the damage is already done, and the immune system is just keeping that switch from being turned on until later in life when the immunity weakens.

    I don't believe in conspiracy, I believe there are clear demonstrated relationships.

    In terms of treatment, the questions are barely asked maybe because it does not change the way it's treated, not yet anyway (they are starting to think less intense treatment for HPV+). The doctors' goal is to eradicate and cure so it doesn't matter to them how it got there unless that is part of their research.

    In a youtube video where a prominent HN specialist talks about survivorship, he says patients should stop smoking AND drinking. I have also read the same, and in some cases to the extreme of avoiding any future irritation, like carbonated pop. But I think we are getting into quality of life if one enjoys a drink once in a while. What's the point of living so cautiously from hence on, if you can't enjoy it?

    Cheers!
    Cheers to that! :)
  • Skiffin16
    Skiffin16 Member Posts: 8,305 Member

    Cheers!
    Cheers to that! :)

    LURKER......
    LOL, Hi bud, wishing you an Abby a great Holiday and any other squeezes in your life.

    Always in my prayers,
    John
  • HydroLar
    HydroLar Member Posts: 14
    Hi Sue,
    Having developed tonsil cancer I was curious as to how and why this happened. I smoked for 25 years with the inhaled smoke hitting my 'bad' tonsil with each puff. Did this result in cancer? Maybe. I also drank some and I loved really, really hot and spicy foods.

    I was warned about all 3 of these things by my radiologist as things that can trigger cancer and therefore things to avoid. My ENT mentioned that my cancer may have been developing for 3 years or so before it manifested itself as a swelling on my neck. Coincidentally that happened to be the exact time I had quit smoking.

    I still don't smoke and I will only drink on special occasions if I ever regain a taste for alcohol but I still eat mildly spicy food. So what will trigger cancer? Probably a combo of all 3 things along with environmental pollution and genetics.

    In other words no one really knows. If you live a life of moderation and not necessarily complete abstinence you'll probably be fine.

    Larry
  • D Lewis
    D Lewis Member Posts: 1,581 Member

    Cheers!
    Cheers to that! :)

    Hi Chuck!
    I've missed you around. Merry Christmas!

    Deb
  • D Lewis
    D Lewis Member Posts: 1,581 Member
    HydroLar said:

    Hi Sue,
    Having developed tonsil cancer I was curious as to how and why this happened. I smoked for 25 years with the inhaled smoke hitting my 'bad' tonsil with each puff. Did this result in cancer? Maybe. I also drank some and I loved really, really hot and spicy foods.

    I was warned about all 3 of these things by my radiologist as things that can trigger cancer and therefore things to avoid. My ENT mentioned that my cancer may have been developing for 3 years or so before it manifested itself as a swelling on my neck. Coincidentally that happened to be the exact time I had quit smoking.

    I still don't smoke and I will only drink on special occasions if I ever regain a taste for alcohol but I still eat mildly spicy food. So what will trigger cancer? Probably a combo of all 3 things along with environmental pollution and genetics.

    In other words no one really knows. If you live a life of moderation and not necessarily complete abstinence you'll probably be fine.

    Larry

    Hmmmmm.
    "Live a life of moderation..." Nope. Didn't work for me. Don't smoke, don't drink, but my tumor was HPV positive.

    Deb
  • HydroLar
    HydroLar Member Posts: 14
    D Lewis said:

    Hmmmmm.
    "Live a life of moderation..." Nope. Didn't work for me. Don't smoke, don't drink, but my tumor was HPV positive.

    Deb

    HPV
    Hi Deb, I have often wondered if my cancer was the result of having HPV. My oncologist told me there was no way to test men for HPV so I'll probably never know. I've read that HPV is more common than the common cold and that 80% of women in their 50's test positive. If true, that would mean that I would most likely have it.

    But just in case HPV did not cause my cancer I have made the decision not to smoke or drink anymore. Eating spicy foods is a little harder to stop for me...

    Larry
  • D Lewis
    D Lewis Member Posts: 1,581 Member
    HydroLar said:

    HPV
    Hi Deb, I have often wondered if my cancer was the result of having HPV. My oncologist told me there was no way to test men for HPV so I'll probably never know. I've read that HPV is more common than the common cold and that 80% of women in their 50's test positive. If true, that would mean that I would most likely have it.

    But just in case HPV did not cause my cancer I have made the decision not to smoke or drink anymore. Eating spicy foods is a little harder to stop for me...

    Larry

    Actually,
    Hi Larry

    So glad you found your way on here. It's always good to meet a fellow warrior.

    The oncologist had my tumor material tested for genetic evidence of the HPV virus. It came back positive for HPV-16, one of the two forms of the virus most responsible for cervical cancer in women. I should have been more specific - I do not actually have an active case of the HPV virus, I just have the genetic material from the virus in the metastatic tumor they removed from my lymph nodes.

    I asked my Stanford doctor about spicy foods and drinking. He told me that in all likelihood, neither had anything to do with my cancer, and I was free to enjoy them in moderation as I wished.

    Deb
  • Skiffin16
    Skiffin16 Member Posts: 8,305 Member
    HydroLar said:

    HPV
    Hi Deb, I have often wondered if my cancer was the result of having HPV. My oncologist told me there was no way to test men for HPV so I'll probably never know. I've read that HPV is more common than the common cold and that 80% of women in their 50's test positive. If true, that would mean that I would most likely have it.

    But just in case HPV did not cause my cancer I have made the decision not to smoke or drink anymore. Eating spicy foods is a little harder to stop for me...

    Larry

    Larry ~ Misleading Info...
    Your oncologist is correct in stating that there is no way to routinely test men for HPV.... But he/she could have tested any tissue suspect (like your tonsils) by doing additional biopsy testing (or having the tissue tested).

    I'm not sure of the specifics, apparently it needs to be sent somewhere for HPV testing. I know he (my ENT) did a quick biopsy the same time my tonsils were removed and it was positive for SCC.

    He send the tissue out and about three weeks later it came back as HPV+.

    Also, according to recent studies, nearly 80% of ALL people over the age of 40ish, have been expose and had HPV.

    But then again, more than likely all of us have been exposed to cancer cells and who knows what else. Usually our bodies immune system gets rid of that stuff...but occasionally for some reason it doesn't..stress, illness, whatever.

    I think (in my unprofessional opinion), that the majority of cancers are just luck of the draw, genetics, who really knows.

    I mean even with known causes, such as tobacco, smoking etc....it's not a given.

    How many people do you know that have smoked their entire life and don't have cancer? I'm not going to do things that I know have a great potential, but if you believe all of the information passed, it seems that nearly everything has potential to cause cancer.

    Anyways...food for thought.

    Best,
    John
  • Sue22
    Sue22 Member Posts: 99

    Hi Sue
    Think about how many cells are in your body.  These cells normally grow and divide in a controlled way to produce more cells as they are needed to keep you alive and healthy.  When cells become old or damaged, they die and then they  are replaced with new cells.

    There are times when this all goes wrong. The genetic material (DNA) of a cell can become damaged or changed, things like smoking and alcohol, chemicals, or HPV, can produce mutations that affect normal cell growth and division. When this happens, cells do not die when they should and new cells form when the body does not need them. The extra cells may form a mass of tissue, a tumor.  Not only can DNA change, and run amok in a bad way, but it can change, or mutate, in a good way.  One of the Fanconi Anemia lead researchers, explained that one of the reasons, I have not had bone marrow failure yet, could be that I am a somatic mosaic.   The blood part of me, the DNA may have righted itself, while the mucosa, has not.  Thus my extreme high risk, and rate of HNC in FA patients.   When I was diagnosed and spoke to some of the people at Rockefeller University, and Cornell, that deal with my blood disorder, FA, they told me that there are FA patients that are 20 years old, that have never smoked, or drank, and have gotten HNC.  They don't even want FA patients to use mouthwash with alcohol in it.  

    So, exposure to something like just the alcohol in mouthwash, in some one predisposed genetically to cancer, is bad, never mind any other of the many other carcinogens there are.  

    If a person drank or smoked in the past, the risk of cancer, will come down with time, but I don't think it ever really goes away.    In my case, I did drink some, and smoke some, but I think because of my other genetic illness, cancer was almost a given, if I didn't die of bone marrow failure first.   

    Cancer can be super slow growing, or the seed, (the damage from years past) can be planted, and only to take root years later and grow.  My tumor got pretty darn big, pretty quickly.  I found my swollen lymph node on October 9th and by December it was the size of a large lemon.   8-/   They never found my primary.  

    I have to say that for me, I never wonder about the 'whys' of people's cancer diagnosis.  I guess I have just seen so many young people struck down with cancer, and unfortunately, not make it, I just think that cancer does what it wants in who it wants.  That may not make sense, but it does in my head.  
    There are some people, that I do wonder, and cannot actually believe HAVE  NOT gotten cancer.  Like my ex.  Who abuses his body with eating crap, and chewing tobacco, and seems to go through life unscathed.  

    Anyway, when you think about the amount of cells dividing in your body all the time, it really isn't surprising that something can go awry.  

    Helpful
    Tks Sweetblood. It is very helpful what you said. Interesting about the cells.
    Tks for taking the time to explain.

    Merry xmas :) Sue
  • Sue22
    Sue22 Member Posts: 99
    HydroLar said:

    Hi Sue,
    Having developed tonsil cancer I was curious as to how and why this happened. I smoked for 25 years with the inhaled smoke hitting my 'bad' tonsil with each puff. Did this result in cancer? Maybe. I also drank some and I loved really, really hot and spicy foods.

    I was warned about all 3 of these things by my radiologist as things that can trigger cancer and therefore things to avoid. My ENT mentioned that my cancer may have been developing for 3 years or so before it manifested itself as a swelling on my neck. Coincidentally that happened to be the exact time I had quit smoking.

    I still don't smoke and I will only drink on special occasions if I ever regain a taste for alcohol but I still eat mildly spicy food. So what will trigger cancer? Probably a combo of all 3 things along with environmental pollution and genetics.

    In other words no one really knows. If you live a life of moderation and not necessarily complete abstinence you'll probably be fine.

    Larry

    Well said
    Yes well said.....moderation is the answer I would think. Tks for your input Larry
  • Sue22
    Sue22 Member Posts: 99
    Sue22 said:

    Well said
    Yes well said.....moderation is the answer I would think. Tks for your input Larry

    Interesting info
    All of you have mentionned many interesting subjects during this discussion. I am learning a lot from you people. Hard to say how one can develop cancer for sure.
    We have to concentrate on the treatments and find ways to get better and live a comfortable life.

    Again....very much appreciated. Tks, Sue

    Merry xmas/Joyeux Noel :)
  • Pam M
    Pam M Member Posts: 2,196
    Wish I COULD Point a Finger
    My docs could/did not name a culprit. Several risk factors applied, though. I worked long hours at a stressful job, was obese, was a former heavy smoker and drinker, drank LOTS of soft drinks and processed foods, have a yard that is regularly dosed with chemicals. I did not spend eight hours a day lying in the poison grass, though - I quit smoking several years ago - I quit drinking heavily in my early twenties. But I have read that it may take from five to forty years for a tumor to develop. I think it is most likely some combo of where you are, what you do, and what your body makes of it. Oh - mine was HPV negative, so there's one thing I can't blame my cancer on.
  • luv4lacrosse
    luv4lacrosse Member Posts: 1,410 Member
    NO ONE REALLY CAN SAY WHAT
    .... Is or may be the direct cause of any of our cancer diagnoses?? My Doc's all say the primary cause of my cancer was definitely HPV related, and that smoking and drinking with HPV cancer is not considered to me a primary suspect of getting cancer. I never smoked at all but was a regular social drinker for most of my life. I know people personally who smoke two packs of cigs a day and sit in a tavern every day after work, eat fast food and have never even had a major health issue. How do we explain this?? We cannot, I truly believe cancer for the most part will attack whomever and for whatever reason, just like I am 14 months post treatment and all is good, and others who have the exact same treatment as I did have a recurrance just a month or two after initial eradicaion of cancer. Why does this happen?? There are people like us right now that will continue to smoke and drink and have not had a recurrance?? Why does this happen??

    My gut tells me that HPV is going to be a huge part of cancer diagnoses in the future, and we may also discover that before we knew anything about HPV derived HNC, that it may have already been a growing factor in the number of new cases of cancer in the past??

    For me personally, I have made allot of changes to accommodate my "new normal." I eat much healthier than in years past, mostly due to the fact that fast food, deli sandwiches, steak, ETC. I simply have a hard time swallowing. The weight I lost from being sick I have managed to keep off through a better diet, and now that I do not compete in powerlifting anymore, I circuit train with what I consider heavy weight, but allot of reps and sets. I made a choice to give up my passion for "Grey Goose" cock tails, but if I feel like having 5 or 6 beers at a sporing event or the many professional orginazations that have social gatherings related to my work, I will do so.

    My doc's still want me to adhere to the ACS rule of "2 per day" for a man, and allot of the time I do, but I cannot live my life hiding from everything the news media and the medical profession says will cause cancer.

    I have rambled on far too long, but I guess i am trying to say, "we just do not know" and especiallly "why me and not the other guy" who is doing all of the stuff the medical community promises will cause cancer, and this guy will never get cancer.

    I hope all of my friends here at CSN had a wonderfull Christmas, and whatever condition you may currently be in when New Years comes, try to ring it in as much as you can in your own way.

    BEST!!

    Mike
  • Skiffin16
    Skiffin16 Member Posts: 8,305 Member

    NO ONE REALLY CAN SAY WHAT
    .... Is or may be the direct cause of any of our cancer diagnoses?? My Doc's all say the primary cause of my cancer was definitely HPV related, and that smoking and drinking with HPV cancer is not considered to me a primary suspect of getting cancer. I never smoked at all but was a regular social drinker for most of my life. I know people personally who smoke two packs of cigs a day and sit in a tavern every day after work, eat fast food and have never even had a major health issue. How do we explain this?? We cannot, I truly believe cancer for the most part will attack whomever and for whatever reason, just like I am 14 months post treatment and all is good, and others who have the exact same treatment as I did have a recurrance just a month or two after initial eradicaion of cancer. Why does this happen?? There are people like us right now that will continue to smoke and drink and have not had a recurrance?? Why does this happen??

    My gut tells me that HPV is going to be a huge part of cancer diagnoses in the future, and we may also discover that before we knew anything about HPV derived HNC, that it may have already been a growing factor in the number of new cases of cancer in the past??

    For me personally, I have made allot of changes to accommodate my "new normal." I eat much healthier than in years past, mostly due to the fact that fast food, deli sandwiches, steak, ETC. I simply have a hard time swallowing. The weight I lost from being sick I have managed to keep off through a better diet, and now that I do not compete in powerlifting anymore, I circuit train with what I consider heavy weight, but allot of reps and sets. I made a choice to give up my passion for "Grey Goose" cock tails, but if I feel like having 5 or 6 beers at a sporing event or the many professional orginazations that have social gatherings related to my work, I will do so.

    My doc's still want me to adhere to the ACS rule of "2 per day" for a man, and allot of the time I do, but I cannot live my life hiding from everything the news media and the medical profession says will cause cancer.

    I have rambled on far too long, but I guess i am trying to say, "we just do not know" and especiallly "why me and not the other guy" who is doing all of the stuff the medical community promises will cause cancer, and this guy will never get cancer.

    I hope all of my friends here at CSN had a wonderfull Christmas, and whatever condition you may currently be in when New Years comes, try to ring it in as much as you can in your own way.

    BEST!!

    Mike

    Well Said...
    Couldn't have said it better myself....

    Oh, LOL....I did say something similar...great minds think alike.

    But joking aside, I totally agree with your comments.

    Best,
    John
  • Sue22
    Sue22 Member Posts: 99

    NO ONE REALLY CAN SAY WHAT
    .... Is or may be the direct cause of any of our cancer diagnoses?? My Doc's all say the primary cause of my cancer was definitely HPV related, and that smoking and drinking with HPV cancer is not considered to me a primary suspect of getting cancer. I never smoked at all but was a regular social drinker for most of my life. I know people personally who smoke two packs of cigs a day and sit in a tavern every day after work, eat fast food and have never even had a major health issue. How do we explain this?? We cannot, I truly believe cancer for the most part will attack whomever and for whatever reason, just like I am 14 months post treatment and all is good, and others who have the exact same treatment as I did have a recurrance just a month or two after initial eradicaion of cancer. Why does this happen?? There are people like us right now that will continue to smoke and drink and have not had a recurrance?? Why does this happen??

    My gut tells me that HPV is going to be a huge part of cancer diagnoses in the future, and we may also discover that before we knew anything about HPV derived HNC, that it may have already been a growing factor in the number of new cases of cancer in the past??

    For me personally, I have made allot of changes to accommodate my "new normal." I eat much healthier than in years past, mostly due to the fact that fast food, deli sandwiches, steak, ETC. I simply have a hard time swallowing. The weight I lost from being sick I have managed to keep off through a better diet, and now that I do not compete in powerlifting anymore, I circuit train with what I consider heavy weight, but allot of reps and sets. I made a choice to give up my passion for "Grey Goose" cock tails, but if I feel like having 5 or 6 beers at a sporing event or the many professional orginazations that have social gatherings related to my work, I will do so.

    My doc's still want me to adhere to the ACS rule of "2 per day" for a man, and allot of the time I do, but I cannot live my life hiding from everything the news media and the medical profession says will cause cancer.

    I have rambled on far too long, but I guess i am trying to say, "we just do not know" and especiallly "why me and not the other guy" who is doing all of the stuff the medical community promises will cause cancer, and this guy will never get cancer.

    I hope all of my friends here at CSN had a wonderfull Christmas, and whatever condition you may currently be in when New Years comes, try to ring it in as much as you can in your own way.

    BEST!!

    Mike

    Yes well said
    Tks Pam M and Mike.

    Well said. I tend to agree for now. I am new in all this so I have to make up my own opinions with all of your info. Very interesting.

    Enjoy the holidays everyone. Sue
  • Kent Cass
    Kent Cass Member Posts: 1,898 Member
    Sue22 said:

    Yes well said
    Tks Pam M and Mike.

    Well said. I tend to agree for now. I am new in all this so I have to make up my own opinions with all of your info. Very interesting.

    Enjoy the holidays everyone. Sue

    NPC
    To my surprise, when diagnosed with NPC, that said C is NOT attributed to smoking. Could not find it anywhere. NPC is also known as Cantonese C, because of the large percentage of it in a certain area of China. The suspected cause of NPC most noted is "salted fish." I gave up drinking in 85, but was a smoker for some 36 years, and perhaps it did contribute to it, but no Dr has ever told me it did, and my research tells me the "smart people" don't think it did. Me- I think it probably did.

    kcass
  • tommyodavey
    tommyodavey Member Posts: 726 Member
    Kent Cass said:

    NPC
    To my surprise, when diagnosed with NPC, that said C is NOT attributed to smoking. Could not find it anywhere. NPC is also known as Cantonese C, because of the large percentage of it in a certain area of China. The suspected cause of NPC most noted is "salted fish." I gave up drinking in 85, but was a smoker for some 36 years, and perhaps it did contribute to it, but no Dr has ever told me it did, and my research tells me the "smart people" don't think it did. Me- I think it probably did.

    kcass

    Luck of the Draw
    I of course asked my surgeon what would have caused my Mucoepidermoid Carcinoma. He said exposure to radiation or other carcinogenic chemicals. But then added that one really knows anyway and it's all guesses.

    From what I remember, I've had no exposure to radiation, (at least not yet) but did smoke for 24 years and drank for about the same. Been over two decades off both. When I researched my type of cancer, which is fairly rare, it said the same thing he said. Also stated it affects children and those in their fifties. So how can children have exposure or bad habits? I just tell people that it's random.

    The kicker is my long gone father in law. He had Oral Cancer and they had him in surgery within hours of seeing it. At the time he was 57, my age.

    He did the traditional therapy and took 5 extra hits of radiation because they said he took it so well. Never missing work or complaining. He did say he lost his taste buds but they came back in two years. All during his radiation and chemo he never stopped smoking or drinking. Go figure.

    The Oral Cancer never came back but Pancreatic did and that's what took his life. He was 74.

    One can never figure out a pattern with this disease.

    My 2¢ worth.

    Tommy
  • RayTodd
    RayTodd Member Posts: 187
    One word
    honest medico's call it Predisposition . I know people non smoker non drinker non conducive environment and still got it. It's life and this is just my personal opinion I am not that interested in what causes it as I have seen people eaten up because of self guilt or blame or whatever but again just me it's happened brace the feet square the shoulders and take it on and squeeze the life out of every day.


    To lighten things someone the other day when I I joked about everyday above ground is a bonus told me what he does is as soon as he wakes up he pushes his elbows to the side and if he doesn't touch wood he knows its going to be a good day. I had some water in my mouth (saliva gone from Rad) I laughed so hard I gave my nose an enema. heheheh
  • Skiffin16
    Skiffin16 Member Posts: 8,305 Member
    RayTodd said:

    One word
    honest medico's call it Predisposition . I know people non smoker non drinker non conducive environment and still got it. It's life and this is just my personal opinion I am not that interested in what causes it as I have seen people eaten up because of self guilt or blame or whatever but again just me it's happened brace the feet square the shoulders and take it on and squeeze the life out of every day.


    To lighten things someone the other day when I I joked about everyday above ground is a bonus told me what he does is as soon as he wakes up he pushes his elbows to the side and if he doesn't touch wood he knows its going to be a good day. I had some water in my mouth (saliva gone from Rad) I laughed so hard I gave my nose an enema. heheheh

    Nose Flush
    LOL, good to see your humor is intact Ray....

    I'm one of those that find humor in most everything also....

    When I was in treatment, my favorite was;

    "Other than having cancer, I'm in perfect health"...

    Best,
    John