"I got ramblin' on my mind"

2

Comments

  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    PhillieG said:

    For What It's Worth
    Why is it that whenever I get involved in one of Joe's post, I always tend to follow suit and through in a song title?
    It is getting confusing for me with the definitions.

    Isn't an atheist someone who does not believe in God?
    Isn't an agnostic someone who is not sure if there is a God?
    Isn't one who believes in God a believer in God?
    It sounds like an atheist is being defined as not believing in God but proof came along they would then believe. Would that happen with a believer in God? If proof came along that there is no God, would they even accept that at all?

    I guess a 4th group would have to be created...

    "People seem to think I'm Super Man"
    (Ted Nugent reference)

    Actually, Phil, I would disagree, although I think we are all beating on the proverbial dead horse at this point.

    If proof came that there was not a god, that would be sufficient evidence, to me, at any rate, that man was omniscient, and therefore, paradoxically, god-like himself, since, I think, such proof would require knowledge of whatever exists in every nook and cranny of the universe and even beyond (if there is something beyond).

    Man, in effect, would be calling himself SuperMan, in Nietzche's words.

    No need, in my opinion, for that fourth option. Otherwise, you and I agree as to the semantics. Those who want to change the rules by re-defining the terminology (TRISH!) are really too slippery to keep up with.

    And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

    Take care,

    Joe
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    wolfen said:

    Say What?
    That one was great Tricia. I told my husband and he is ROFL. He says there's no difference between an agnostic and an atheist. They both drink beer.

    Take care,

    Wolfen

    Hmmm
    The difference is that the atheist does not believe in free beer, while the agnostic holds out hope.

    :)

    Take care,

    Joe
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member

    "People seem to think I'm Super Man"
    (Ted Nugent reference)

    Actually, Phil, I would disagree, although I think we are all beating on the proverbial dead horse at this point.

    If proof came that there was not a god, that would be sufficient evidence, to me, at any rate, that man was omniscient, and therefore, paradoxically, god-like himself, since, I think, such proof would require knowledge of whatever exists in every nook and cranny of the universe and even beyond (if there is something beyond).

    Man, in effect, would be calling himself SuperMan, in Nietzche's words.

    No need, in my opinion, for that fourth option. Otherwise, you and I agree as to the semantics. Those who want to change the rules by re-defining the terminology (TRISH!) are really too slippery to keep up with.

    And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

    Take care,

    Joe

    Aye, there's the rub
    Joe,

    You say:

    "If proof came that there was not a god..."

    The problem is that you cannot prove a negative.

    How about these definitions:

    A believer has a clear picture of their god(s), in other words, some sort of religion, even if it is entirely personal

    An agnostic posits that some form of faith may be correct, or they may all be wrong, so barring proof, chooses not to believe

    An atheist posits that all faith is a creation of man, and therefore is false
  • luz del lago
    luz del lago Member Posts: 449
    Buckwirth said:

    Aye, there's the rub
    Joe,

    You say:

    "If proof came that there was not a god..."

    The problem is that you cannot prove a negative.

    How about these definitions:

    A believer has a clear picture of their god(s), in other words, some sort of religion, even if it is entirely personal

    An agnostic posits that some form of faith may be correct, or they may all be wrong, so barring proof, chooses not to believe

    An atheist posits that all faith is a creation of man, and therefore is false

    I know what I choose to believe, but what do others believe?
    We have shared many thoughts and beliefs lately, but what do those of you that say you are agnostics or atheists believe happens to your being when your biological being ceases to breathe?

    Please keep in mind that I respect most of you and that I believe that we are all here for a purpose. I am not challenging anyone's thoughts, theories or beliefs. Just curious.

    Lucy
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member

    I know what I choose to believe, but what do others believe?
    We have shared many thoughts and beliefs lately, but what do those of you that say you are agnostics or atheists believe happens to your being when your biological being ceases to breathe?

    Please keep in mind that I respect most of you and that I believe that we are all here for a purpose. I am not challenging anyone's thoughts, theories or beliefs. Just curious.

    Lucy

    "All we are is dust in the wind"
    (Kansas reference)

    I am afraid, Lucy, that for those of us who are unknowing, there is the prospect of simply leaving, remaining only as imprints on the minds of those we have affected, perhaps. I suppose this is why I describe agnosticism as courageous and lonely: I don't WANT to just go away, but 'just go away' I may very well do.

    Atheists, I am sure, feel similarly, although we agnostics have the added dread of finding ourselves before some sort of Pearly Gates and thinking to ourselves, "Uh oh." :)

    Take care,

    Joe
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    Buckwirth said:

    Aye, there's the rub
    Joe,

    You say:

    "If proof came that there was not a god..."

    The problem is that you cannot prove a negative.

    How about these definitions:

    A believer has a clear picture of their god(s), in other words, some sort of religion, even if it is entirely personal

    An agnostic posits that some form of faith may be correct, or they may all be wrong, so barring proof, chooses not to believe

    An atheist posits that all faith is a creation of man, and therefore is false

    choices
    Buck, I didn't bring up the 'proof that there is no god' suggestion, but merely responded to it.

    I like your definitions, except that I would still maintain that agnosticism is a-belief, without belief, that is, an agnostic does not 'choose' not to believe, does not choose TO believe, and, in fact, cannot choose. It is what it is. He or she simply does not know and accepts this.

    It is not about belief for the agnostic, which separates him/her from the atheist semantically; it is about knowledge. That provides hope that at some point the agnostic will have a revelation of some sort, will be provided a 'knowledge' (faith, rather) not available to one who is adamantly opposed to the proposition that a god (or gods) might exist.

    At least by my definition.

    Your definition of the agnostic would be good (to me, anyway) if you left off the part about choosing not to believe.

    Take care,

    Joe
  • luz del lago
    luz del lago Member Posts: 449

    "All we are is dust in the wind"
    (Kansas reference)

    I am afraid, Lucy, that for those of us who are unknowing, there is the prospect of simply leaving, remaining only as imprints on the minds of those we have affected, perhaps. I suppose this is why I describe agnosticism as courageous and lonely: I don't WANT to just go away, but 'just go away' I may very well do.

    Atheists, I am sure, feel similarly, although we agnostics have the added dread of finding ourselves before some sort of Pearly Gates and thinking to ourselves, "Uh oh." :)

    Take care,

    Joe

    Dust in the wind...
    I asked the question before, not to question folks beliefs, but since Dennis passed there are questions that I have been asking. I believe he is in a better place, a place where the deterioration of cancer, the pain, the struggle is no longer an issue for him.

    The night he passed, the funeral home sent two directors to take away his body. Rewind... two weeks after his diagnosis, extensive small cell lung cancer with mets to his liver, he awoke from a bad dream. I tried to soothe and calm him. He described the dream to me. He said he was laying face down, it was dark and he could not move. Two men, in dark suits came to take him away, he struggled within himself and cried out to me. He said that he knew I was the only one that could save him. Back to the night he passed away... You can only imagine the look on my face when two gentlemen,both in dark suits, came in through our front door and introduced themselves, offered me their condolences and said they were here to pick up the deceased! I went to another room. I had said my goodbyes to my love and did not want to see them take him away.

    A week later, he was cremated. His military burial was delayed for a few weeks and our two adult children did not want their father's cremains sitting on a shelf, so we brought them home. The whole time they were here, I never saw them as "him". My belief is that he had entered eternal life. These were just the remains of the biological body that had housed his soul here on earth.

    As time has passed, I have begun to wonder about "eternal life". Based on my belief, all the toils, ills and troubles of the earthly life are gone. There is no sorrow, no tears, no pain. So does that mean that to my love all that was here no longer matters? That the glory and magnitude of seeing God is so splendid that leaving it all is of no consequence?

    I suppose that the glory is his ( Dennis') and not mine. His dying really has nothing to do with me. And everything to do with him. It's just that we shared everything for so long that I really feel left behind in all of this!

    Other things I wonder: Can he hear me? Can he see me? Can he do anything to help me when I am confronted with an obstacle due to his passing? Should I even think this? Shouldn't I be asking God to help me? Which I do, and many times in this new journey, I feel He has. Not like I've sat back and all of a sudden, problem solved. I've had to dig deep inside, find courage, seek assistance. I feel God has given me the strength to find the answers.

    Dennis' passing has led me on a new journey. Not just living alone and handling everything on my own. It is a journey of learning, about myself, about the world. About what I believe to be possible. About what I am not sure of, so I seek or question. About what I choose to accept and believe in, based on what I have experienced. Not scientific fact, just life experience.

    I suppose this is why I find other views so enlightening. Not that I am seeking to change my beliefs, just wanting to hear how others view these ideals. As you've said before, Joe, I probably have too much time on my hands!

    Lucy
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member

    Dust in the wind...
    I asked the question before, not to question folks beliefs, but since Dennis passed there are questions that I have been asking. I believe he is in a better place, a place where the deterioration of cancer, the pain, the struggle is no longer an issue for him.

    The night he passed, the funeral home sent two directors to take away his body. Rewind... two weeks after his diagnosis, extensive small cell lung cancer with mets to his liver, he awoke from a bad dream. I tried to soothe and calm him. He described the dream to me. He said he was laying face down, it was dark and he could not move. Two men, in dark suits came to take him away, he struggled within himself and cried out to me. He said that he knew I was the only one that could save him. Back to the night he passed away... You can only imagine the look on my face when two gentlemen,both in dark suits, came in through our front door and introduced themselves, offered me their condolences and said they were here to pick up the deceased! I went to another room. I had said my goodbyes to my love and did not want to see them take him away.

    A week later, he was cremated. His military burial was delayed for a few weeks and our two adult children did not want their father's cremains sitting on a shelf, so we brought them home. The whole time they were here, I never saw them as "him". My belief is that he had entered eternal life. These were just the remains of the biological body that had housed his soul here on earth.

    As time has passed, I have begun to wonder about "eternal life". Based on my belief, all the toils, ills and troubles of the earthly life are gone. There is no sorrow, no tears, no pain. So does that mean that to my love all that was here no longer matters? That the glory and magnitude of seeing God is so splendid that leaving it all is of no consequence?

    I suppose that the glory is his ( Dennis') and not mine. His dying really has nothing to do with me. And everything to do with him. It's just that we shared everything for so long that I really feel left behind in all of this!

    Other things I wonder: Can he hear me? Can he see me? Can he do anything to help me when I am confronted with an obstacle due to his passing? Should I even think this? Shouldn't I be asking God to help me? Which I do, and many times in this new journey, I feel He has. Not like I've sat back and all of a sudden, problem solved. I've had to dig deep inside, find courage, seek assistance. I feel God has given me the strength to find the answers.

    Dennis' passing has led me on a new journey. Not just living alone and handling everything on my own. It is a journey of learning, about myself, about the world. About what I believe to be possible. About what I am not sure of, so I seek or question. About what I choose to accept and believe in, based on what I have experienced. Not scientific fact, just life experience.

    I suppose this is why I find other views so enlightening. Not that I am seeking to change my beliefs, just wanting to hear how others view these ideals. As you've said before, Joe, I probably have too much time on my hands!

    Lucy

    "Smashing a perfectly good guitar"
    (John Hiatt reference)

    I am not Gandhi or some such, Lucy, as you clearly know, just another butthead surfer with an opinion and you must certainly know the expression about how everyone has one, but since you ask, here is what I think:

    To begin with, it took me quite some time to understand that someone of faith might also have doubt, as you seem to be exemplifying. How, I wondered, could a person of faith have doubt? The notions seem contradictory. Faith requires something beyond doubt, I guess I thought (and, still, largely do).

    But we are human beings, after all, not logical constructs, and so, yeah, a person of faith can doubt. I understand that and accept it, even if it still seems strange to me.

    With respect to where your husband is, I clearly have no idea, and if I were you I would go with your faith and your instincts. They got you this far, after all.

    With respect to 'glory', I would advise, Lucy, without knowing exactly what you mean when you use that word, that you should give yourself some credit. If you mean that your husband has gone on to the greater glory, fine. But in any event, you have worked your butt off for however long to care for him, I suspect, to let him know that you were there for him, and to believe, along with him, that you would see each other again. I would say that as his primary caregiver some of the glory should at the very least reflect upon you.

    Otherwise, Lucy, seeking 'enlightenment' is never a bad thing, as far as I can tell, as long as it is honest and intelligent.

    As you have said yourself, knowledge is empowerment.

    Take care,

    Joe
  • 3Mana
    3Mana Member Posts: 811

    Dust in the wind...
    I asked the question before, not to question folks beliefs, but since Dennis passed there are questions that I have been asking. I believe he is in a better place, a place where the deterioration of cancer, the pain, the struggle is no longer an issue for him.

    The night he passed, the funeral home sent two directors to take away his body. Rewind... two weeks after his diagnosis, extensive small cell lung cancer with mets to his liver, he awoke from a bad dream. I tried to soothe and calm him. He described the dream to me. He said he was laying face down, it was dark and he could not move. Two men, in dark suits came to take him away, he struggled within himself and cried out to me. He said that he knew I was the only one that could save him. Back to the night he passed away... You can only imagine the look on my face when two gentlemen,both in dark suits, came in through our front door and introduced themselves, offered me their condolences and said they were here to pick up the deceased! I went to another room. I had said my goodbyes to my love and did not want to see them take him away.

    A week later, he was cremated. His military burial was delayed for a few weeks and our two adult children did not want their father's cremains sitting on a shelf, so we brought them home. The whole time they were here, I never saw them as "him". My belief is that he had entered eternal life. These were just the remains of the biological body that had housed his soul here on earth.

    As time has passed, I have begun to wonder about "eternal life". Based on my belief, all the toils, ills and troubles of the earthly life are gone. There is no sorrow, no tears, no pain. So does that mean that to my love all that was here no longer matters? That the glory and magnitude of seeing God is so splendid that leaving it all is of no consequence?

    I suppose that the glory is his ( Dennis') and not mine. His dying really has nothing to do with me. And everything to do with him. It's just that we shared everything for so long that I really feel left behind in all of this!

    Other things I wonder: Can he hear me? Can he see me? Can he do anything to help me when I am confronted with an obstacle due to his passing? Should I even think this? Shouldn't I be asking God to help me? Which I do, and many times in this new journey, I feel He has. Not like I've sat back and all of a sudden, problem solved. I've had to dig deep inside, find courage, seek assistance. I feel God has given me the strength to find the answers.

    Dennis' passing has led me on a new journey. Not just living alone and handling everything on my own. It is a journey of learning, about myself, about the world. About what I believe to be possible. About what I am not sure of, so I seek or question. About what I choose to accept and believe in, based on what I have experienced. Not scientific fact, just life experience.

    I suppose this is why I find other views so enlightening. Not that I am seeking to change my beliefs, just wanting to hear how others view these ideals. As you've said before, Joe, I probably have too much time on my hands!

    Lucy

    Made me think
    Lucy,
    Got up early this morning. Guess since it's getting closer to March 25th, the day Tom died last year, I just can't sleep. I have so many questions too, but as for Dennis & Tom hearing us & seeing us, I really kind of believe they can. Sunday I drove on the freeway for the first time (don't laugh) and when I got home I took his picture & talked to it and said " Hey, buddy, guess what I did? I drove home on the freeway, aren't you proud of me?" I felt like he did hear me. And like I said once before, I bought myself a little snowblower this year. Well one day when I was out there snowblowing, I almost felt like he was watching me and saying "why the hell didn't I buy her one sooner?" Am I nuts or what???
    Darn I wish you & I lived near one another, cause we really think so much alike, Lucy!!
    That was weird that Dennis dreamt about the 2 guys in the dark suits! Actually when the funeral directors came to get Tom, the kids made me go down into our rec room. Now I wish so much that I could've given him one last hug. Because of the way he hemmoraged though guess they didn't want me to see him. As it was, they had moved him to the living room and when they took him away and I went upstairs, there was a big spot of blood on the carpeting and I just couldn't take it. Had to get new carpeting the next week cause even though I put a throw rug over it, I knew it was there.
    Anyhow here I am, rambling again. I just enjoy talking so much to you, cause it seems like we went through similiar experiences. Take care Lucy! Carole
  • PhillieG
    PhillieG Member Posts: 4,866 Member

    I know what I choose to believe, but what do others believe?
    We have shared many thoughts and beliefs lately, but what do those of you that say you are agnostics or atheists believe happens to your being when your biological being ceases to breathe?

    Please keep in mind that I respect most of you and that I believe that we are all here for a purpose. I am not challenging anyone's thoughts, theories or beliefs. Just curious.

    Lucy

    Don't Know
    That's why I'm an agnostic!
    ;-)

    Physics tells us that energy can neither be created nor destroyed so I lean more toward our energy moving on in some form or another. That's about it. I'm much clearer about what I believe does not happen.
    -phil
    Great rose photo by the way...
  • wolfen
    wolfen Member Posts: 1,324 Member
    3Mana said:

    Made me think
    Lucy,
    Got up early this morning. Guess since it's getting closer to March 25th, the day Tom died last year, I just can't sleep. I have so many questions too, but as for Dennis & Tom hearing us & seeing us, I really kind of believe they can. Sunday I drove on the freeway for the first time (don't laugh) and when I got home I took his picture & talked to it and said " Hey, buddy, guess what I did? I drove home on the freeway, aren't you proud of me?" I felt like he did hear me. And like I said once before, I bought myself a little snowblower this year. Well one day when I was out there snowblowing, I almost felt like he was watching me and saying "why the hell didn't I buy her one sooner?" Am I nuts or what???
    Darn I wish you & I lived near one another, cause we really think so much alike, Lucy!!
    That was weird that Dennis dreamt about the 2 guys in the dark suits! Actually when the funeral directors came to get Tom, the kids made me go down into our rec room. Now I wish so much that I could've given him one last hug. Because of the way he hemmoraged though guess they didn't want me to see him. As it was, they had moved him to the living room and when they took him away and I went upstairs, there was a big spot of blood on the carpeting and I just couldn't take it. Had to get new carpeting the next week cause even though I put a throw rug over it, I knew it was there.
    Anyhow here I am, rambling again. I just enjoy talking so much to you, cause it seems like we went through similiar experiences. Take care Lucy! Carole

    Speaking With Those Who Are Gone
    Lucy and Carole,

    As I sit here and read the various posts on this subject, I find that some of us have similar experiences and feelings. Although I have not lost a spouse, I have lost both my parents(my father in 1977 and mother in 2006). I am far from a child, but still find myself having one sided conversations with each of them. I guess this is just being wistful. I hope they can hear me wherever they are, but unfortunately have never had that feeling. I do think it's wonderful that each of you have a special connection with your spouses. My daughter, Johnnybegood, told me that as she fought this cancer beast the first time, she felt that "Gram" was helping her and watching over her. She and my mother were very close.
    When Lucy wrote about the "men in black", it was an eerie feeling. My father-in-law died about 10 years ago(black lung and prostate cancer). My husband went home to take care of him before he passed away and he told my husband about multiple dreams or visions and being very frightened because the "men in black were coming for him". Just before he died, he said to my huband "The men in black are here" and then he slipped away. There may be other experience of this kind, but this is the only other I have heard of. He was a minister.
    I count myself among the Agnostics, I guess. I want to believe there is something better ahead for us all, but I'm just not sure. One of Joe's comments about Agnostics hit home in reference to arriving at the Pearly Gates and going "uh oh". Maybe some of us who aren't sure what's out there, just want an "insurance policy" way out, so if we do arrive there, we won't be left out in the cold.
    I do envy those of you who have found something wonderful to believe in.

    My best wishes to all,

    Wolfen
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member

    choices
    Buck, I didn't bring up the 'proof that there is no god' suggestion, but merely responded to it.

    I like your definitions, except that I would still maintain that agnosticism is a-belief, without belief, that is, an agnostic does not 'choose' not to believe, does not choose TO believe, and, in fact, cannot choose. It is what it is. He or she simply does not know and accepts this.

    It is not about belief for the agnostic, which separates him/her from the atheist semantically; it is about knowledge. That provides hope that at some point the agnostic will have a revelation of some sort, will be provided a 'knowledge' (faith, rather) not available to one who is adamantly opposed to the proposition that a god (or gods) might exist.

    At least by my definition.

    Your definition of the agnostic would be good (to me, anyway) if you left off the part about choosing not to believe.

    Take care,

    Joe

    It was Phil
    But the point is the same.

    In general, Both the atheist and the agnostic have a scientific worldview. Were science to discover the existence of a creator/supreme being most, not all, but most, would accept its existence. I actually expect much more so than those with a particular religious POV.

    Atheism is not a religion, and, to me, is not so much about the existence of god(s) as it is about the folly of religion, worship and putting faith before science.

    Here's a thought:

    If there were a single world interpretation of god, and you only had to choose between that faith and no faith, would it make your choice easier?
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member

    Dust in the wind...
    I asked the question before, not to question folks beliefs, but since Dennis passed there are questions that I have been asking. I believe he is in a better place, a place where the deterioration of cancer, the pain, the struggle is no longer an issue for him.

    The night he passed, the funeral home sent two directors to take away his body. Rewind... two weeks after his diagnosis, extensive small cell lung cancer with mets to his liver, he awoke from a bad dream. I tried to soothe and calm him. He described the dream to me. He said he was laying face down, it was dark and he could not move. Two men, in dark suits came to take him away, he struggled within himself and cried out to me. He said that he knew I was the only one that could save him. Back to the night he passed away... You can only imagine the look on my face when two gentlemen,both in dark suits, came in through our front door and introduced themselves, offered me their condolences and said they were here to pick up the deceased! I went to another room. I had said my goodbyes to my love and did not want to see them take him away.

    A week later, he was cremated. His military burial was delayed for a few weeks and our two adult children did not want their father's cremains sitting on a shelf, so we brought them home. The whole time they were here, I never saw them as "him". My belief is that he had entered eternal life. These were just the remains of the biological body that had housed his soul here on earth.

    As time has passed, I have begun to wonder about "eternal life". Based on my belief, all the toils, ills and troubles of the earthly life are gone. There is no sorrow, no tears, no pain. So does that mean that to my love all that was here no longer matters? That the glory and magnitude of seeing God is so splendid that leaving it all is of no consequence?

    I suppose that the glory is his ( Dennis') and not mine. His dying really has nothing to do with me. And everything to do with him. It's just that we shared everything for so long that I really feel left behind in all of this!

    Other things I wonder: Can he hear me? Can he see me? Can he do anything to help me when I am confronted with an obstacle due to his passing? Should I even think this? Shouldn't I be asking God to help me? Which I do, and many times in this new journey, I feel He has. Not like I've sat back and all of a sudden, problem solved. I've had to dig deep inside, find courage, seek assistance. I feel God has given me the strength to find the answers.

    Dennis' passing has led me on a new journey. Not just living alone and handling everything on my own. It is a journey of learning, about myself, about the world. About what I believe to be possible. About what I am not sure of, so I seek or question. About what I choose to accept and believe in, based on what I have experienced. Not scientific fact, just life experience.

    I suppose this is why I find other views so enlightening. Not that I am seeking to change my beliefs, just wanting to hear how others view these ideals. As you've said before, Joe, I probably have too much time on my hands!

    Lucy

    Lucy,
    "His dying really has nothing to do with me. And everything to do with him."

    In my worldview my death is all about those I leave behind and not about me at all. In death, I am gone, but my friends and family are left with a hole to fill and that burden will be theirs, not mine. That said, i will do what I can to make it easier for them.

    A funeral is not about the body in the casket, it is about helping those who survive cope with the loss.

    Hopefully that helps you understand me.
  • luz del lago
    luz del lago Member Posts: 449
    PhillieG said:

    Don't Know
    That's why I'm an agnostic!
    ;-)

    Physics tells us that energy can neither be created nor destroyed so I lean more toward our energy moving on in some form or another. That's about it. I'm much clearer about what I believe does not happen.
    -phil
    Great rose photo by the way...

    Roses
    Thanks, Phil. That is a rose from our many rose bushes. Dennis loved roses, so we grew them. I look forward to their blooming this season, I think it will bring joy to my eyes and to my heart to see them, to smell them once again!

    Lucy
  • luz del lago
    luz del lago Member Posts: 449
    Buckwirth said:

    Lucy,
    "His dying really has nothing to do with me. And everything to do with him."

    In my worldview my death is all about those I leave behind and not about me at all. In death, I am gone, but my friends and family are left with a hole to fill and that burden will be theirs, not mine. That said, i will do what I can to make it easier for them.

    A funeral is not about the body in the casket, it is about helping those who survive cope with the loss.

    Hopefully that helps you understand me.

    Hello Buckwirth...
    In writing, his dying had nothing to do with me, I was reflecting on the eternal life that I believe he has now been given. It was his time to receive that wonder. And like I had written previously, nothing I could have said or done would have changed the outcome. You are so right, the ones left behind carry the burden. The burden of missing them so, wondering why it all happened, working through financial, emotional, spiritual, and even physical stresses. The one who has passed will no longer be troubled by any of these issues.

    I believe I was afforded a wonderful opportunity when it came to his, "second" service. I'll explain: Two days after his passing, a Funeral Memorial Mass was held. He was to be cremated, so there was no casket, and no cremains in an urn, as it was the holidays. Many, many friends and family attended. To be perfectly honest, I was so exhausted, as I had cared for him, with the assistance of Hospice for one week with hardly any sleep or rest! At the Mass, which was his wish, I sat numbly watching as if I were in a movie theater. I know that it meant so much to others, me not as much as I guess shock was what I was experiencing. His full military honors ceremony was not scheduled until a month and a half later. I brought his cremains home until that time. Many were concerned how that would feel to me, if it would cause more grief. I said to them, "please don't worry. What I feel is that these cremains are just that, yes to be treated with dignity and respect, but the man I loved, the father of my children is not in that box!". In having a second ceremony, I was in a better place then to receive the comfort and peace.

    So now he has been buried and I'm to begin to move forward in this new journey of mine. I am a Believer and thus I am holding on to this faith as I make my way through this time. The best thing I've been told in all of this was, "just because you are a Believer does not mean you don't get to cry, scream and question why this has happened". Thank goodness! For years, I just accepted what I was told to believe, now I find that in order to "believe" I must question and search for some of the answers myself, not just because someone says so. But I must say, that I am not questioning the existence of God, but questioning what is there for me to learn in all of this? What of it will make me stronger or a better person?

    I posed the question as to what agnostics and atheists believe or think happens when they have ceased to breathe. What do they think or feel about souls? As I have stated and shared with Joe and Phil, I have no agenda here, only seeking enlightenment. I respect others and what they believe or not believe. I share my thoughts and experiences as a way of communicating with my fellow human beings, and perhaps I may occasionally be able to be of comfort to someone as they journey through this life.

    Phil, I rather like what you said about energy. That is scientific, so perhaps there is some proof for some of us, perhaps...

    Thank you all for sharing.

    Lucy
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    Buckwirth said:

    It was Phil
    But the point is the same.

    In general, Both the atheist and the agnostic have a scientific worldview. Were science to discover the existence of a creator/supreme being most, not all, but most, would accept its existence. I actually expect much more so than those with a particular religious POV.

    Atheism is not a religion, and, to me, is not so much about the existence of god(s) as it is about the folly of religion, worship and putting faith before science.

    Here's a thought:

    If there were a single world interpretation of god, and you only had to choose between that faith and no faith, would it make your choice easier?

    :)
    That's good Buck, and got me to thinking, I don't know why, but the answer is the same: it would not make anything easier and there still would be no choice.

    There simply is no choice in the matter.

    As for lumping atheists and agnostics into the same grocery cart, from a logical perspective that is intolerable. There IS that middle ground. If you want to call yourself an atheist who has an out, that is fine with me. No probs. But anyone who leaves room for a higher power is NOT an atheist by the classical definition, but, rather, a reasonable person with a quick understanding of what others might not be aware of: an agnostic.

    Belated welcome to this room, by the way! Enjoying your viewpoint.

    Take care,

    Jloe
  • Buckwirth
    Buckwirth Member Posts: 1,258 Member

    :)
    That's good Buck, and got me to thinking, I don't know why, but the answer is the same: it would not make anything easier and there still would be no choice.

    There simply is no choice in the matter.

    As for lumping atheists and agnostics into the same grocery cart, from a logical perspective that is intolerable. There IS that middle ground. If you want to call yourself an atheist who has an out, that is fine with me. No probs. But anyone who leaves room for a higher power is NOT an atheist by the classical definition, but, rather, a reasonable person with a quick understanding of what others might not be aware of: an agnostic.

    Belated welcome to this room, by the way! Enjoying your viewpoint.

    Take care,

    Jloe

    Agnostic is not Athiest
    They just seem to sit in the middle.

    Reread my statement. How would adherents of the worlds great religions react to such a discovery? How would atheist's react?

    Those with a personal image of a higher power would probably react much the same as an agnostic, and my statement did not include them.
  • bluerose
    bluerose Member Posts: 1,104

    :)
    That's good Buck, and got me to thinking, I don't know why, but the answer is the same: it would not make anything easier and there still would be no choice.

    There simply is no choice in the matter.

    As for lumping atheists and agnostics into the same grocery cart, from a logical perspective that is intolerable. There IS that middle ground. If you want to call yourself an atheist who has an out, that is fine with me. No probs. But anyone who leaves room for a higher power is NOT an atheist by the classical definition, but, rather, a reasonable person with a quick understanding of what others might not be aware of: an agnostic.

    Belated welcome to this room, by the way! Enjoying your viewpoint.

    Take care,

    Jloe

    When you experience direct Divine Intervention - you believe
    I wrote about a healing I had while in hospital, the promise came to pass - the cancer never came back. I won't write it all again but Joe you had mentioned maybe having a direct exposure to Divine Intervention might cause you to believe and I agree. It totally does. Hard to argue with events like I went through. I don't feel the need to convince anyone though, it's between God and myself. I pass along the story now and then when I get the feeling someone could benefit from it.

    I am not a church goer, couldn't recite a verse from the bible if you paid me but still the healing happened and there was no question that is what it was. I wasn't expecting it, I was praying for my life at that time though but never said the words 'send a healing' really didn't even know exactly what it was or how it might play out but it happened anywho.

    I believed before this, no idea why and I don't question it. After the healing I KNEW like I never KNEW anything before. When it comes from The Big Guy, trust me, you KNOW. No question.

    Thought I would throw in my 3 cents.

    Blessings,

    Bluerose
  • Lisa13Q
    Lisa13Q Member Posts: 677
    bluerose said:

    When you experience direct Divine Intervention - you believe
    I wrote about a healing I had while in hospital, the promise came to pass - the cancer never came back. I won't write it all again but Joe you had mentioned maybe having a direct exposure to Divine Intervention might cause you to believe and I agree. It totally does. Hard to argue with events like I went through. I don't feel the need to convince anyone though, it's between God and myself. I pass along the story now and then when I get the feeling someone could benefit from it.

    I am not a church goer, couldn't recite a verse from the bible if you paid me but still the healing happened and there was no question that is what it was. I wasn't expecting it, I was praying for my life at that time though but never said the words 'send a healing' really didn't even know exactly what it was or how it might play out but it happened anywho.

    I believed before this, no idea why and I don't question it. After the healing I KNEW like I never KNEW anything before. When it comes from The Big Guy, trust me, you KNOW. No question.

    Thought I would throw in my 3 cents.

    Blessings,

    Bluerose

    I wish
    I'm envious BlueRose......I wish I could believe.....consistently.....
  • soccerfreaks
    soccerfreaks Member Posts: 2,788 Member
    Buckwirth said:

    Agnostic is not Athiest
    They just seem to sit in the middle.

    Reread my statement. How would adherents of the worlds great religions react to such a discovery? How would atheist's react?

    Those with a personal image of a higher power would probably react much the same as an agnostic, and my statement did not include them.

    "Every day seemed like Sunday"
    (Greg Allman reference)

    Here is how Merriam-Webster describes atheism, for what it is worth:

    a: a disbelief in the existence of deity

    b: the doctrine that there is no deity.


    And this is how it describes agnosticism:

    a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable broadly: (one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

    They seem quite distinct to me, and I am sure to you, too, Buck.

    I frankly do not think that you and I are in disagreement, Buck, based on your last two responses here. I think, again, as with Trish, there may a semantics issue.

    Given the above definitions of atheism, for example, it becomes apparent that it IS faith-based. It is, that is, a religion. How does one, that is, disbelieve something of such all-encompassing magnitude without faith (or omniscience, of course)? Going back to the Russell thing, and to your own acknowledgement that you cannot disprove a negative, what permits one to call oneself an atheist?

    Faith.

    More interesting to me is the notion that you nearly expressed out loud, although I am not sure you did: What if a god exposed itself, revealed itself; how would believers and non-believers (atheists and agnostics alike) react?

    That story has been told many times, of course, beginning with the New Testament itself and repeated over time in various fictions right up to the present day. I would suggest that if this entity were presented in a form we understand (in the form of a man, let us say) then most of humanity would disregard it as a saviour, while there would be the inevitable followers, as was, reportedly, what Jesus experienced.

    If the entity contradicted notions of godliness, that is where it gets really interesting: What WOULD born-again christians, for example, do if god turned out to look like a toad or any other such thing far beyond what they have always believed? What would muslims do for that matter? Hebrews? Bhuddists?

    Would they be like Peter? Would they deny 'it' three times and maybe more? Would they be suddenly doubtful Thomases? Would they reject it outright because it did not fit their socioethnoeconomic images of what god must be?

    I think I agree with what you seem to be suggesting, that the doubters and disbelievers might actually come around first, since they have no a priori expections.

    Take care,

    Joe