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Why I love Thomas, The Ketogenic Diet hits the headlines, even Mercola at last is promoting it

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

Dearest Friends,

Please don't read this if life style interventions will cause you stress.

Please read this if you are interested in life style interventions with regards to diet.

Its a strange co-incidence that this article landed in my inbox the same day as my increased cancer marker, I am a making plans to do the full ketogenic diet, sold by doctor COY. its the ultra marathon of life style interventions. On a separate thread re a book review, the premise of the books was attacked and indirectly the lifes work of many worthwhile doctors. I presonally know one of the doctors and am impressed generally with their knowledge ( a few things on colorectal i think they are missing ). basically this discussion is focused on diet and the current science.

hugs,

pete

PS the diet, and fasting well its a low cost, effective strategy to try, of course discuss with your doctor. ask them about tktl1. they won't know, you will need to educate them each step of the way.

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/03/10/ketogenic-diet.aspx?e_cid=20130310_SNL_Art_1&utm_source=snl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20130310

By Dr. Mercola

To some, a ketogenic diet amounts to nothing less than a drug-free cancer treatment. The diet calls for eliminating carbohydrates, replacing them with healthy fats and protein.

The premise is that since cancer cells need glucose to thrive, and carbohydrates turn into glucose in your body, then cutting out carbs literally starves the cancer cells.

This type of diet, in which you replace carbs with moderate amounts of high quality protein and high amounts of beneficial fat, is what I recommend for everyone, whether you have cancer or not. It’s simply a diet that will help optimize your weight and health overall, as eating this way will help you convert from carb burning mode to fat burning.

 

This quote is one of many from the book below, DER is dietary energy restriction. If you are interested, just google ketogenic and cancer, some links are on my blog.

 

Late-onset DER also delayed malignant progression and significantly extended mouse survival. These effects were associated with changes in metabolic biomarkers, including blood glucose and lactate levels (Fig. 17.15). We showed that expression of these biomarkers was linked to the downregulation of the IGF-I/ Akt/ Hif-1α signaling pathway [77]. Our findings emphasize an important role for activation of the IGF-I/ Akt/ Hif-1α signaling pathway in potentiating the antiapoptotic phenotype of astrocytomas and indicate that DER targets this signaling pathway. A goal of the cancer drug industry is to target the IGF-I/ Akt/ Hif-1α pathway for tumor management. Our results show that DER can target this pathway without the use of expensive and toxic cancer drugs. Cancer patients and their oncologists should know about this.

 

Seyfried, Thomas (2012-05-18). Cancer as a Metabolic Disease: On the Origin, Management, and Prevention of Cancer (Kindle Locations 8206-8213). John Wiley and Sons. Kindle Edition. 

coloCan
Posts: 1926
Joined: Oct 2009

www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/Nutrition/Diet/ketogenic_diet_cancer_0310131030.html

(i know there's a connection between mercola and this site and i know mercola sells stuff but i check consumer site daily and get emails from mercola.....both anti-GMO)

 

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
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i was not going to post this, i don't like overwhelming the group here with all my alternative research.

but john23 and I had a small debate, about lifestyle, this article was the perfect proof for me.

its actually got nothing to do with the science, its far more simple, people fear change, they don't embrace it.

just my opinion and observation. remember my exercise post and what a futile effort that was at getting our community to exercise, to improve our prognosis.

the only person it helped was me. Its not personal with john23, i love the guy, its just he is like so many that simply do not believe in lifestyle 

interventions.

thank god we all have our right to choose our medical treatment, its just for me that lifestyle.

I don't really have the emotional energy to defend treatments I share here from attack, any issues with ketogenic go attack mercola.

i doubt he will reply either.

thanks for replying, i am about to call doctor coy and place my first order for a months worth of ketogenic food and drinks.

when the going gets tough the tough goto mcdonalds for a shake ( only joking ) actually they get going.

my cea just came in at 12, a small increase, ( I am back in the game I think ) , got another vaccine shot tomorrow.

hugs,

pete

 ps http://www.mskcc.org/blog/scientists-discuss-major-trends-modern-research  just got this from tony mwnm more opinion, this time msk ceo.

its all a matter of who you going to trust, it starts with yourself

Trubrit's picture
Trubrit
Posts: 3070
Joined: Jan 2013

I was not going to post this, i don't like overwhelming the group here with all my alternative research.

I don't think you should worry about 'overwhenlming' us with your posts about alternative research. We see your post subject line, and if we're not intereted we don't have to open up the thread. 

I love your posts and I will be looking into you link here.

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

This video might save your life, or add a few days, DONT watch it if a healthy diet will cause you stress.

If you want to understand sugar, cancer and some cell biology, then go ahead and make your day!

 http://www.mskcc.org/blog/scientists-discuss-major-trends-modern-research

i feel a bit like john the baptist, tony mwnn provided the above link, watch the video 31min from the ceo of msk.

if you don't have time just go to min 26, its all about sugar, and the single biggest thing we can do as a community is ditch all sugar if we want to live.

sounds real extreme, but that what I had to tell myself 2 1/2years ago to loose my 50 kilograms of fat. noone loved sugar more than me, I still have a few troublesome cells.

i am enjoying being so healthy and starving my cancer cells. 

its a real perverse satisfacion knowing that even if one day those pesky cells take me out, well I have starved them for their entire life. 

That I find really emotionally satisfying, it made giving up sugar simple. 

Have a heart to heart with your onc about the ketogenic diet, what you got to loose beyond a few pounds, you might gain a few days!

the science, the articles, the anecdotes compelling. of course we have our dinosaurs and they can suck down coke and eat icecream.

the msk ceo said it, its diet and its igf1. I am going for a workout, it drives down blood glucose and is good for my heart, gets some extra o2 floating aound

if you are conviced about diet, remember all the science, convert your family and friends and we just made the world a healthier place.

that was so easy!

hugs,

pete

PS be a lion, not a sheep!

 

Major Trends in Modern Cancer Research 2012: Discussion with Memorial Sloan-Kettering’s President

 
Runtime
31:00

Memorial Sloan-Kettering President and CEO Craig B. Thompson welcomes attendees to the seventh annual Major Trends in Modern Cancer Research lecture for high school students and introduces the speakers. Dr. Thompson also discusses how cancer cells grow and spread, and explains the link between cell growth and metabolism.

manwithnoname
Posts: 404
Joined: Jun 2012

for posting this here, I wasn't going to.

As you know I did this for 3 months, but I did the calorie restricted version, 700K/cal per day. There are a few versions of this diet you don't need to restrict calories to that level.

I felt very good on the diet, lots of gut issues cleared up. My son hated it.

I missed the fruit a lot, the carbs from pasta, bread etc not so much.

People should research this diet themselves before dismissing it outright especially after what MSKCC have discovered about cancer metabolism, they are also looking at Metformin, which acts in a similar way.

The video should be compulsary for every cancer patient. Im thinking very seriously about doing it again as a lifestyle change. Sugar is poison, ther are many experts who believe that, it's a drug we need to kick, or at least control.

Maybe just low carb is enough.

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
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your link is sensational, you have been hammered here, i on the other hand have the protection of some tumour cells.

the best 3 videos i have watched and for school kids. the sugar stuff, the gbm profiling and the vaccine stuff amazing.

we are here fighting for our lives, and kids get these lectures.

only in america. 

hugs,

pete

 

ps keeping the language positive

I have used the term dietary energy reduction to describe those therapies that use reduced dietary energy intake to treat cancer. This term is more appealing than the terms calorie restriction or dietary restriction. While these terms might be acceptable when discussing treatments for animal cancers, they are less appropriate in discussions for treating human cancer patients. Humans, and especially cancer patients, do want restrictions. These people are already suffering enough form their disease. The word “restriction” connotes a negative approach to their treatment. Even the term dietary energy reduction has a negative connotation. What would be a better term to convey a more positive approach to cancer management than terms involving food reduction or restriction? I suggest we consider the term mitochondrial enhancement therapy (MET) to denote this cancer therapeutic strategy in humans. Indeed, the transition from glucose metabolism to ketone metabolism will reduce tissue inflammation and ROS, while enhancing the metabolic efficiency of the mitochondria.

 

Seyfried, Thomas (2012-05-18). Cancer as a Metabolic Disease: On the Origin, Management, and Prevention of Cancer (Kindle Locations 8724-8732). John Wiley and Sons. Kindle Edition. 

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gizzyluv
Posts: 144
Joined: Feb 2013

Pete, I am SO glad you posted this! I have been doing research ever since Jason's diagnosis & even though just about every site you go to tells you in black & white that sugar is what cancer cells LOVE, the books, pamphlets, etc. that we got from the hospital & dr's office all say to eat ice-cream, milkshakes, basically anything & everything whether it's loaded with sugar or not. I mean I understand that if the person doesn't feel like eating, & they 'will' eat ice-cream & stuff like that, sure they need to eat whatever they 'can' eat....but, when they are able to eat most anything then WHY would you want to put sugar in your body if you know that the cancer cells are gonna have a field day with it? Another thing I'm wondering about, I looked & looked for Jason protein drinks (like Ensure) that aren't loaded with sugar (like Ensure....) & I found a great one (I think?)....it's called Eas Myoplex. They are basically for body builders but they each contain 42 grams of protein (for 17 oz.), 300 calories, & only 1 gram of sugar. The only thing I'm worried about is just 1 serving has a LOT of vitamims & minerals....40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, & 100% of your daily needs, & since I've read that too many vitamins are as bad as not enough, I'm afraid to let him drink more than 2 a day. I would love to hear from anyone who knows about this kind of stuff. I'm planning on taking the nutritional information to his oncologist Wednesday to see what he thinks but I'm afraid he's gonna tell me to just get Ensure....and I'm not comfortable doing that, not with all the sugar. Thanks in advance for anyone's help! Kris

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
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the issue with some proteins is they might have iron or copper, ideally we get most of our nutrition from healthy whole food, which is impossible post op and with folfox, so try and find a really good compassionate naturopath to give some one on one guidance. i have been to heaps, they all offer dvice, at this point what you need  is basic support most naturopaths can provide. dont get suckered into buying lots of expensive supplements, the basics are more important.

watch the videos. did you ? get jason to ? i would be interested in your opinion ceo of msk versus the oncs ? 

who you gonna trust ? i made my decision.

goodluck with yours

LIFE WITHOUT SUGAR IS SO SWEET!

hugs,

pete

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John23
Posts: 2139
Joined: Jan 2007

 

Re:

“WHY would you want to put sugar in your body if you know that the cancer cells are gonna have a field day with it?”

 

The answer is simple……

 

Cancer cells live by the fermentation process, and that requires a lot of glucose. All our good cells also need glucose to suvive.

 

Cancer cells can not hear instructions from the body that would tell the cancer cell to behave, so the cancer cells use as much glucose as the can, without restrictions.

 

Good cells can hear the body’s instructions, and only use what glucose they need for energy and survival.

 

The cancer cells actually steal the glucose away from good cells, in their little lawless life…..

 

So trying to starve cancer cells by withholding glucose, is useless. You will starve good cells first, while the cancer cells continue to steal away any glucose available.

 

Starving good cells will lead to a rapid decline in energy, weight, and life from good cells, while the cancer cells continue to flourish. The immune system rapidly suffers without the needed energy.

 

So, if you want to help cancer cells take over, just withhold needed glucose from your diet!

 

People should stop reading the hyperbole from the alternative industry, they have become as crooked as the rest of the medical industry. They pay for “studies” and publish what they want without restriction, living just like the cancer they say they are fighting.

 

Eat a well-rounded diet and as much as you can, if you want to fight the cancer within. Your body needs the extra energy to do battle; starving it is not a good idea.

 

Best hopes for your better health,

 

John

manwithnoname
Posts: 404
Joined: Jun 2012

answer is not 'simple'...

"We have demonstrated that in human and mouse cancer cell lines, activated Akt directs a direct conversion of metabolic control to aerobic glycolysis (the Warburg effect). This conversion addicts cells to glucose and renders them sensitive to any agent that inhibits glucose uptake or glucose catabolism"

Craig B. Thompson,  MD    CEO MSKCC

"Watson explained that this demonstrates how scientists can work toward stopping cancer by decreasing insulin levels and glycolysis with this diabetes treatment."

Professor James Watson Nobel prize winner.

 

"So, if you want to help cancer cells take over, just withhold needed glucose from your diet!"... John23

Are you saying then to KILL cancer just eat sugar?

No one is saying stopping sugar "cures" cancer...just to be absolutley clear.

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pete43lost_at_sea
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john and marie and tony,

thank you for your opinions ( you make some good points ), they are motivated by care and compassion as mine are, as I believe most of us here are.

We have had different journeys and we end up here talking and sharing. The goal of these discussions, I want even use debate is simply raise awareness, that ultimately our health is in our own hands.

Now exercise is recommended on CSN ( years after I started pushing it ), did we all start walking NO. Did ONC start recommending it ? NO

Our health has to come from within, not without. The best we can do is heal ourselves, doing so in public is an worthwhile goal, it proves much the same.

Did exercise stop my recurrence NO, did it help me be the healthiest colorectal stage 4 on the planet, maybe yes. 

Driving our biologies, driving our spirits simply my way of attempting to survive. We each live our life our ways, thats our right, its the way it should be.

Our MEDICAL SYSTEM  steal hope, fellow patients who keep that HOPE surpressed with stories of misery, repeated add infinitum does not help those patients seeking HOPE, those patients seeking cure.

cancer starves our souls of hope, I meet so many people with cancer, I look into their eyes and I see fear.

they look at me and I wonder. My CEA was 12 today, it could be RECURRENCE again, it could be a REMOVAB spike. Next month I get GAMMA DELTA immune cells the most aggressive immunotherapy, if its needed. Time will tell. Today is great, this discussion is great and I hope we are all smiling.

I got to go and workout and the coffee has cooled.

hugs,

Pete

PS I respect Marie and John views, if they want to read the research we have provided they can, they may not want or need to. I wont argue john points sentence for sentence. I am glad Tony made a few comments. encouraging peace not division where I am at.

PPS I will do the full ketongic diet and all the tests. I will blog it properly, like the immunotherapies. If it helps me, it may serve as an example for others. If I fail I was wrong about SUGAR, but ketogenic is not THE CURE, but it helps. Why is having a hardcore diet that miht save your life for 3 months so challenging. We know what the status quo offers, we know what ketogenic offers ? 

http://www.mercola.com/article/sugar/sugar_cancer.htm ( Mike did you see its Patrick Quinlin )

My homework for today FRIENDS, be a sheep if you want, you know what happens to sheep. At least the lions have a chance, be a lion!

http://www.mercola.com/article/aspartame/government_cover_up.htm john23 also mentioned this issue to his credit, over coming your sweet tooth essential, don't dump sugar and go onto artifical alternatives. 

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Sundanceh
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Cool

 

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
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i get tempted to eat the sheep, its hard being a vegan lion.

hugs,

pete

ps you stick to your side of the river the conventional side and i will stick to the non convnetional side.

we can be friends across the river, one day we have to change sides, who knows. roar!

google hotel for lions

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2139
Joined: Jan 2007

 

Re:

“Are you saying then to KILL cancer just eat sugar?”

 

No, I didn’t say that. You quoted what I said:

 

“So, if you want to help cancer cells take over, just withhold needed glucose from your diet!”

 

Our body needs as much glucose as it can use, to provide the energy it needs for survival. During times of stress or illness, our body requires more glucose, not less. No, not donuts and chocolate covered cherries, but good food that contains glucose.

 

http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000010000000000000000-4.html

 

When one avoids providing the body of what it needs to survive, the body will suffer. Meanwhile, the cancer cells will take what they need, growing and festering inside a body that is intentionally being depleted of what it needs for it’s survival.

 

I much prefer to work –with- mother nature, than  fight against her,

 

(some related reading material)

http://www.cancer.gov/ncicancerbulletin/110111/page5

http://www.hydrazinesulfate.org/

Cancer is not a complicated life-form; anything can kill a cancer cell. The problem is in the targeting of the cancer cell, not in the devices or chemicals used to kill it.

 

The best, most natural way to target and destroy the cancer cell, is with our own immune system, but we do not help our immune system do that by withholding what it needs and requires for it’s own survival.  (Yes…… it is that simple.)

 

Common sense should always prevail, not recited industrial hype.

 

 

I sincerely wish everyone the very best of health!

 

John

 

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Lovekitties
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Dear Kris,

My sister is in treatment for stage 4 uterine cancer.  Her onc told her to use Glucerna because she is border line diabetic.

He told her that if she didn't feel like eating she could have up to 5 per day, and that adding ice cream to make it a milk shake was good.  Reason?  Because one of the things that happens with cancer and with treatments is that the patient looses weight.  Keeping up the weight helps keep up the stamina to get thru.  After my own surgery, I was told to use Boost Plus to get in as much protein as possible to aid healing.

I agree with John23's assessment below.  Cancer cells take first and whatever is left goes to the good cells.  If it were otherwise, we could eliminate/kill off cancer just by eliminating sugar.

By all means, check all this out with his doctor, but don't be surprised if the recommendation remains the same.

Marie who loves kitties

jen2012
Posts: 1596
Joined: Aug 2012

Kris - I bet Jason will soon get his appetite back.  My husband lost a lot in the beginning, but has gained it all back.  Between the tumor shrinking from the chemo, plus the appetite he got from the steroid....well, he gained it all back and then some!  While he was losing too much, the dietician suggested adding oil to his foods like soups, sauces, etc for the extra calories.   Lots of people also claim that mashed potatoes go down easy - you can add oil to that too.  

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annalexandria
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Nothing tasted very good and I had a lot of nausea.  My husband made them with full-fat ice cream and milk, and fresh fruit (and "lots of love", as he would say).  I was down to a size 2 at that point.  Let's just say that now, 3 1/2 years later, I am still a size 2...plus 10.  You can add protein powder to shakes too.  I was able to eat those with no trouble, and they gave me a little boost of much needed energy.  AA

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wawaju04976
Posts: 316
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I know when I first started chemo, I had to eat what I wanted to eat. If a donut sounded good, I had to have a donut. I have now leveled off (7th tx done) and not having such cravings, but if I hadn't eaten what/when I wanted, I would never have put back on the 13-15 pounds I lost in the hospital. My first chemo tx I was 101 lbs. I panicked!

Judy

Dxed
Posts: 79
Joined: Dec 2012

 

Nice presentation; informative. Fasting is the key; elevation of Ketone works magic

 

But does not ketones lead to ketonosis and are very dangerous? (i'm no scientist)

 

Sander

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pete43lost_at_sea
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for watching the 5 minutes of my precious life i invested to post these is worth, i have helped one friend here.

ketosis may have some risks, but i got a few troublesome cells.

i wonder if anyone here will try this diet with me, i would love to share the experiences as we go along on this crazy experiment together that we call life.

its an invitation and NOT an order or a request even. is an invitation like this allowed here on csn ?

if i say i want to try ketogenic, the onc will say OK if you must!

they want be happy but they wont say NO, in their heart they will know you ARE so special, that you want to live more than all their other patients,

i get VIP treatment from all the doctors because they know i put 1000% effort in this game of survival.

if anyone asks their onc about ketogenic i would be very curious.

sander, thanks for taking the time to watch, maybe your example will motivate some others curiousity.

hugs,

pete

manwithnoname
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Joined: Jun 2012
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renw
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I have been on a ketogenic diet for 2 months now. I did a lot of research into diets and cancer and this one seemed to make the most sense. (I was looking at all the various diets as a biochemist).

Its the hardest diet I was ever on. It was fine for the first 2 weeks, but eventually eating high fat medium protein and virtually no carbs gets to you.

I did achieve a significant reduction in glucose levels. During the diet I did achieve stable disease, but no reduction. I was also on folfiri at the time. Basically I don't know whether the stable disease is due to the chemo or the diet. I do have multi drug resistant cancer, so most chemo has not worked well for me. Only way to tell is stop chemo for a month and note growth.

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annalexandria
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as someone with a background in medieval history.  People got cancer in the Middle Ages.  Yet they had very little access to sugar, except in the form of honey and fruit (and even that was pretty limited, if not non-existent, in the diet of the lower classes).  I think a healthy diet is kind of a no brainer, but if people need to gain weight and increase appetite, then carrots probably aren't going to cut it.  And I'll never forget the story I read about the very young woman who gave up all sugar in the last months of her life as she was dying of cancer.  Her mom commented on how much her daughter missed her little treats, which kind of broke my heart.  I guess I just feel that, like cancer itself, all of this is very complicated, and there is still no one right answer out there.  Share information, but be supportive of what others choose while you do it.  AA

manwithnoname
Posts: 404
Joined: Jun 2012

there seems to be a confusion on sugar causing cancer and sugar fueling cancer. I don't believe sugar causes cancer.

The idea of sugar (glucose) fueling cancer seems to me proven beyond doubt.

 

And if you are in the last months of your life,...have the cookie....

John23's picture
John23
Posts: 2139
Joined: Jan 2007

 

Re:

“The idea of sugar (glucose) fueling cancer seems to me proven beyond doubt.”

 

 

So to save gasoline consumption with a vehicle that’s running poorly, don’t continue to put gas in the tank?

 

Won’t that cause the vehicle to eventually run out of gas where you least expect to?

 

Is the highway of life really that confusing? Should it be?

 

Keep your sense of humor, it’s the least expensive way to stay healthy!

 

 

My best,

 

John

 

manwithnoname
Posts: 404
Joined: Jun 2012

I can let Harvard convince you, but probably not eh?

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/11/insulin-and-colon-cancer-linked/

TBH it's quite clear to me, and you won't be converting me with your opinion. Lets leave it at that.

I have a great sense of humour and as dark as coal.

 

"Recent studies have shown that colorectal cancer survivors whose diet and activity patterns lead to excess amounts of insulin in the blood have a higher risk of cancer recurrence and death from the disease. High insulin levels can be produced by eating too many starchy and sugar-laden foods"

It's also funny we are having the same argument on 2 different forums at the same time.Tongue Out

John23's picture
John23
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Joined: Jan 2007

 

“Although the results point to a potential hazard of a high-carbohydrate diet for colon cancer patients, the take-home message is not a conclusive “Eat less sugar,”

 

said lead author Jeffrey Meyerhardt, associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School (HMS). “Our study certainly supports the idea that diet can impact the progression of colon cancer, and that patients and their doctors should consider this when making post-treatment plans.

 

But further research is needed to confirm our findings.

 

(From: http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/11/insulin-and-colon-cancer-linked/)

 

 

So unconfirmed findings are the rule? We should lead our lives and hope for survival based on hypotheticals?

 

A good, well-rounded diet is something I have always believed in (as well as most of the medical world); our body was designed to be fueled by different foodstuff, and the bulk of it will contain nutrients, vitamins and items that our body’s processing needs for it’s survival.

 

I do not believe that fasting, or eliminating (natural) foods from the diet based on some hypothetical notion, is a healthy thing to do. Our body needs an assortment of foodstuff: meats, vegetables, fruit, fish, foul, etc., to survive. Many foods provide an abundance of glucose, and glucose is what our cells need to survive. We should not be attempting to eliminate what our body requires for survival.

 

Healthy thoughts and wishes,

 

John

janderson1964
Posts: 2215
Joined: Oct 2011

I think the idea is to eliminate sugar or limit is such as sugar laden soft drinks candy deserts which offer nothing but empty calories. Also processed simple cabs such as white bread white pasta an white rice which again offers little or no nutritional value that our bodies can benefit from. I make I watch the number of carbs I eat per meal and that they are whole grain.

manwithnoname
Posts: 404
Joined: Jun 2012

and most processed food are NOT natural John

you want to pick and choose from that study? fine.

 

"Meyerhardt and his colleagues found that those with a typical “Western” diet — marked by high intakes of meat, fat, refined grains, and sugar desserts — were three times more likely to have a cancer recurrence than those whose diets were least Western"

 

"further research is needed", yes if this were the ONLY study linking these...but it ain't...

All Im doing is pointing out what the latest research has found, y'all can take it or leave it.

"We should lead our lives and hope for survival based on hypotheticals?"  most stuff about TCM is not double blind randomised placebo controlled is it John? but it didn't stop you taking a gamble.

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pete43lost_at_sea
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but it was dark and 85%.

the wine glass is 50% full

no the wine glass is 50% empty.

we will never agree on the level , it depends on our persepctive.

we are friends, lets agree to disagree as always happens amongst passionate independent thinkers.

not many sheep in this paddock.

i say lets just have a drink.

hugs,

pete

ps the wine glass is full of water, alas. a year of ned and i will have a glass of red and not before. next week we can discuss alcohol and the liver and the p53 suppressor gene and ethanol, or then again maybe not.

pps do whatever you want, listen to whoever you want and enjoy your life. cheers.

the lovely waitress tonight said would you like some sugar with your coffee, i said nothankyou i am sweet enough already!

 

pps seriously consider this, this discussion is happening in the bar at the asco conference, some onc for, some onc against. 

if you like to gamble and don't have a sweet tooth then its simple, otherwise, i say goto the dentist and have the sweet tooth extracted. 

you can always put the tooth back after you have defeated cancer.! i am glad your TCM gamble worked John, let us gamble on sugar in peace.

janie1
Posts: 753
Joined: Apr 2011

LOL.
There were some pretty sweet responses
here.

Deena11
Posts: 193
Joined: Nov 2012

For four of the months I was in treatment, I was unable to eat anything.  Everything I tried to eat came back up.  The clinical dietitian who was working with me was trying desperately to get some kind of nutrition into my body.  I lost 50 pounds and became dehydrated many times.  The only thing that I was able to tolerate was Ensure Plus.  I knew it had sugar in it but it also had the nutrients my body needed to fight the cancer and not starve to death while going through chemo.  Once I started drinking that, I was able to maintain my weight and not lose more.  I didn't have a choice and would do it again if I had to (hopefully, it won't happen again). 

So Worried
Posts: 111
Joined: Aug 2012

I applaud Pete for being soooo proactive and soooo willing to try new things to help himself. It really IS nice that he shares everything with us and like someone said here...if you see the title of the post by him or anyone and you do not like it, just move on without opening it......

Anyway, the debate about sugar and no sugar or carbs and no carbs, etc...

I truly believe that everyone handles it different.  I really think that you could take 2 people with stage 4 colon cancer, same type of resection, same chemo, cancer in the same amount of lymph nodes, same amount, sizes, and spots on liver ........same bloodwork. Same everything....same age....they are the same sex too! 

These 2 people eat the same exact thing for breakfast, lunch and dinner every single day and they each each 5 dunuts in the evening and go to bed. They both do the same exercise program and they both sleep 8 hours and they both work all day on the computer. They have identical lives!! They do this for a year straight. 

How much ya want to bet they each have a different outcome?  Everyone's body/immune system, dna is just sooooo different. Maybe that's why we can just try, try, try different things to see what works the best for us or our loved ones. It's so nice to also support everyone here no matter what they believe in :)  

Prayers for everyone.....

herdizziness's picture
herdizziness
Posts: 3642
Joined: Apr 2010

When someone posts something as fact which is in doubt still, then one cannot just close their eyes to it and "move on", disinformation can hurt if it is not spoken up about, putting the blinders on and moving over to a topic that is correct or one you agree with, and ignoring the false or misleading information can cause others to believe EVERYONE is in accordance to what has been said because no one objected, therefore, the old "Hey don't look here if you don't like what I post" is something that should not and will not happen.  You cannot support disinformation, cannot support the downing of my nation (I can't at least) or my oncologist, or call me a sheep without some sort of feedback.

Winter Marie

So Worried
Posts: 111
Joined: Aug 2012

sorry, dbl post

 

So Worried
Posts: 111
Joined: Aug 2012

Why are you calling the post or any post disinformation?  

herdizziness's picture
herdizziness
Posts: 3642
Joined: Apr 2010

There has been disinformation, a purple juice that will cure you, a diet alone that will cure you, just juicing will cure you (please note I said JUST juicing, not juicing in addition to other things)It is up to you to choose which one of the many YEARS this forum has been around what disinformation post you wish to go back on.  I'm speaking in generalities, not discussing this original post, we've been off subject for quite a few posts now on THIS post, so going back to it seems eons ago by now). We are fallible not infallible, what may have been main stream fact at one time, may now be something that doesn't work, they come up with new chemos, new surgeries etc.  Do you see?  Most disinformation isn't done on purpose here, it just happens sometimes, or sometimes it's just misinformation perhaps being a better word.  And sometimes we have differences of opinions, but that doesn't mean we need to keep them to ourselves, discourse, when done civilly it good.

Winter Marie

So Worried
Posts: 111
Joined: Aug 2012

dbl , sorry all..it keeps doing that - when i hit submit just once!

manwithnoname
Posts: 404
Joined: Jun 2012

trouble at mill...

well this why I didn't post the original info here, turned into something nasty (yet again) 

If the study from Harvard/Faber doesn't convince you then fine have your cake and eat it.

If you are on the fence, research more on sugar/glucose cancer relationship.

If you are on chemo and your Onc. says 'more calories needed' have them (although I would go for protein shake personally)

If you believe refined sugar is natural and harmless you are entitled to that belief.

 

"The study involved 1,011 stage III colon cancer patients who had undergone surgery."

"They found that participants with the highest dietary levels of glycemic load and carbohydrate intake had an 80 percent increased risk of colon cancer recurrence or death compared with those who had the lowest levels"

If your wating for your Onc. to confirm the findings above, it will take around 5 years for others to duplicate and publish.

It's not just one study though there are many more.

 

 

coloCan
Posts: 1926
Joined: Oct 2009

Question is:how do you determine credibility of source? Has what you have read/learned since DX changed anything in your life

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/257558.php

www.healthcanal.com/cancers/36926-Tip-Sheet-March-Colorectal-Cancer-Awareness-Month.html

 

annalexandria's picture
annalexandria
Posts: 2574
Joined: Oct 2011

I don't think a single person on this forum thinks that eating gobs of processed crap is good for you.  From the comments I've read, we all think that having a healthy diet is one of several useful tools in this fight (I believe you used that word, Tony).  I think the argument arises when people say you can "cure" your cancer by not eating sugar (or going on some other diet, ketone or otherwise), or when people discourage newbies from doing what they feel they need to do to get some calories, under incredibly difficult circumstances.  I'm not even sure what the heck we're arguing about, really...sometimes I feel that people just enjoy stirring the pot for the sake of creating conflict.  AA

steved
Posts: 835
Joined: Apr 2004

Have just spent a good chunk of mooring ng reading the above and the links as seems ainteresting thread. My own opinion is that diet is undoubtably linked to colorectal cancer but threlationships is complex and sugar certainly isn't the be all and end all of the cause or cure.Personally I choose to follow a basic balanced diet and include sugar as I wish but respect those whochoose differently. Will leave my opinion there.

 

As for the debate above, that is what this board is about: healthy sharing of informationand diverse opinion. No one has the right to stifle other opinions in any thread as long as they are expressed respectfully. Balanced information is what allows people to make their own informed decisions. Long may this continue here but with ahealthy dose of polite respect for all. The key is  to share information and allow others to decide on it not to try and convert each other. 

 

Healthy debate and support is core tthesis forum. Long may it continue,

Steve

renw's picture
renw
Posts: 282
Joined: Jan 2013

This argument is running in parallel on colonchat.net, there its mostly the world vs John. One hand we have John with his personal experience, where sugar did not appear to play part in his remission. John was probably lucky, in that some compound in some herb he was taking had an impact on his specific genotype. TCM so far has not worked for me however. And i believe pete tried it as well with no results.
Some people have huge response to chemo, for others like me for example, chemo is useless so everyone's cancer is different depending on the mutations.

John's strong belief in that sugar plays no role in cancer is based on
1. his personal experience, where he ate sugar as part of his balanced diet and still got NED.
2. conspiracy theories that the artficial sweetener industry is behind the anti sugar hype
3. His personal beliefs

vs. the other side of the camp which claims that sugar/insulin play a major part in cancer growth rates. No one is saying eat no sugar and u will get no cancer or be cured of one. What we are saying is that sugar fuels cancer growth and by reducing or eliminating sugar, cancer growth can be retarded.

I have asked john to produce some evidence to backup his point of view. He came up with no study that discredited the glucose/sugar and cancer growth link. On the other hand, there are dozens if not hundreds of studies that shows a positive link between glucose/insulin and cancer growth. I am sorry John, but the evidence against glucose is overwhelming. There are also new studies coming out which hint at manipulating the body metabolic systems, as potential cancer treatments. Its all related to glucose availability. Same in the case of Metformin.

I personally have cut out all sugar and all high gi foods from my diet. I break the diet on chemo days where I pig put on sugary foods for 2 days every 2 weeks. My reasoning here is that folfiri only works during cell division, so I encourage my little mutants to reproduce while 5fu and riinotecan are pulsing though my veins.

Dxed
Posts: 79
Joined: Dec 2012

 

 







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I am not sure why the claim is generating such diverse responses. In the video, it is said that “fasting” and this kind of diet was applied to mice and humans, and it was limited to brain cancer (and can treat other cancers). The results were great. He also maintains that he is writing a protocol for a trial at the cancer center at the University of Michigan. That is said, the whole idea is to starve your body to force  it produce ketones (owing to the absence of glucose in the blood stream). One’s body produces ketones to substitute for the needed sugar (glucose). Cancer cells feed on those ketones as they feed on glucose, and die.  The whole claim is to produce those ketones, and they believe that the recommended diet does the trick.

 

However, everything you take (no matter what your diet is) will be transformed into glucose. Now, it all depends on the level of diet that induces ketone production. Type 1 Diabetics also know how dangerously life-threatening ketones are. Every single one of (type 1) must have visited the ER at least once (twice or more is the norm).

To me, this treatment is not for a person to try. Of course he can choose this good diet for one’s own well being and general health. But as a treatment of cancer, it has to be under the supervision of a treating doctor. To add the Harvard study on insulin, there seems also a relation between fasting and less insulin secretion and cancer treatment. Reduction of glucose means less insulin secretion, and more ketone production. If they prove the effectiveness of this "fasting" Im sure they can manufacture medical "ketones" and have it at will and proper dose.

 

Sander

manwithnoname
Posts: 404
Joined: Jun 2012

"Work on the ketogenic diet as a treatment for epilepsy have investigated the role of glycolysis in the disease. 2-Deoxyglucose has been proposed by Garriga-Canut et al. as a mimic for the ketogenic diet"

Kathleen808's picture
Kathleen808
Posts: 2361
Joined: Jan 2009

Hi Pete,

I haven't read the whole post or watched the video yet but just wanted you to know that I am familiar with the ketogenic diet since it is a diet used for some people who have seizures that cannot be controlled any other way.  Our daughter has epilepsy and therefor we have looked into the diet.  Her seizures are controlled with medication but we know that if they ever get out of control the ketogenic diet may be an option for her.

Stanford University has a link that has a ketogenic diet planner on it.  I have not used it but thought it might be helpful.  http://www.stanford.edu/group/ketodiet/   I am interested to know if somehow a diet that helps some people with uncontrollable siezures can also help in the cancer fight.  Also, I know with the small children who go on this diet, they are monitored very closely as the diet changes the way the body works in some ways (please excuse the unscientific words).

Be well.

Aloha,

Kathleen

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

I wanted to bring the benefits of this diet to the communities attention, I feel it has merit, I am doing it. I was really seeking some support. 

To the few who watched the video thanks, for those who were constructive and kind thanks, to the others well its the law of kara.

If you are interested PM me, its to dangerous to reply. I will let this incredibly important post be my last to the community for the time being while I focus on my recurrence and my therapies.

Maybe some other new explorer will step up and try and share some new ideas. I have not seen many in the last two and half years here. If someone else turns up I wish them a better experience then I have had here, but its all my own fault and I have learnt my lesson.

My survival instincts are quiet well developed, thats something colorectal cancer. Sorry about using the sheep analogy, sorry for pointing out the failings of conventional oncology. 

Hugs,

Pete

PS I cannot even use the word HUGs, oh well one last time. I hope this ends the sugar discussion. I have read everyones comments, but its to soul destroying and draining for me to answer them.

manwithnoname
Posts: 404
Joined: Jun 2012

Don't go...sure you ruffled feathers and the 'sheep' thing was bad judgement, but there are people here who have done the same (or worse) and they ain't leaving.

The sugar discussion is not over because important issues keep coming back up, and it's important at least until we get a definative answer. 

I left as well and here I am againSealed

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3908
Joined: Nov 2010

I have to learn german for all these conferences.

I have to knuckle down and meditate and exercise and qigong my ass off as well as have all these wonderful therapies and research.

something had to give, and the feedback here just made that decision easy.

when my marker is zero I will be back. meanwhile I will lurk occaisionally, shoot me an email if its something hot.

Everyday is a battle for survival using gentle holistic therapies.

hugs,

Pete

luvinlife2
Posts: 172
Joined: Jul 2012

I watched the video and did the reading.  My nat onc has been pushing me towards this for some time now.  He is convinced that my cancer cells are particularily insulin sensitive.  I've been on metformin for about a year now.  I must get very serious about this but I have difficulty when I cook for a husband and 3 kids who eat very healthy but have sweet tooths as well.  My problem is the carbs not so much the processed sugar.

Thank you Kathleen for the link Smile  I think that it's real help for any of us who will be getting down and serious about the diet.  I'm not sure I can but will speak about it further with my nat onc.

The only beef I have with the video is that I hate it when Dr.'s refer to patients as being expired.  It's so clincial and cold.  We're not parking meters or library cards...we're human beings with souls and feelings.  Why do they say that?  As you can tell, it really bugs me.

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