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Interesting Article in Time Magazine: "Sabotage - Why Cancer Vaccines Don't Work"

Sundanceh's picture
Sundanceh
Posts: 4268
Joined: Jun 2009

http://healthland.time.com/2013/03/05/self-sabotage-why-cancer-vaccines-dont-work/

Some interesting fodder between theories and a test tube vs the results in a real life application...

Just thought I'd post the link for anyone interested. 

There was a line from an old butter spread commercial in the 60's that said...

"It's not nice to fool Mother Nature..."

 

 

sdp's picture
sdp
Posts: 142
Joined: Jan 2012

This article is interesting and would be apt for Peter tray to ask his german Docs and see what their response is.

If he is going to take further vaccines and if the Docs try to assimilate the knowledge from this article it may just hasten the process and maybe we all can benefit from the result as it would cut quite a long waiting period.

More of us with the resilience And the resources that Peter has going for him could try the same and we can probably be nearer to some sort of treatment in a much lesser time frame.

Hope Peter reads this and gets going after the german Docs and it all turns out for the better for him and all of us.

janderson1964's picture
janderson1964
Posts: 1562
Joined: Oct 2011

thd way I understand it is that article that Craig posted is about a different vaccine than what Pete is doing. Dendritic cell vaccine is taking the persons actual dendritic cells (which scout threats and signal the t cells to attack) and program them with antigens from the persons actual tumor and then inject it back into the body. Kind of like letting a bood hound smell an article of clothing from a person that you want the dog to find.

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3915
Joined: Nov 2010

If I get a response i will put it here.

hugs,

Pete

manwithnoname
Posts: 390
Joined: Jun 2012

Especially since I have read dozens and dozens of vaccine trials and never saw IFA used as an adjuvant, personally I would speculate the reason of poor success is the state of the patients going for clinical trials, usually heavilly pre-treated with no immune sysytem left and huge tumours. Also I haven't seen a single trial that used chemo to deplete T-reg and MDSC's first (the immune supressive cells)

Many reasons why a vaccine is so hard to develop, but mother nature will be beat, ask her about TB, Polio, Smallpox etc...

tachilders's picture
tachilders
Posts: 315
Joined: Jun 2012

The above is likely correct.  Vaccines require a functional immune system to work, as they work indirectly through the body's immune system (unlike chemo which has a direct effect on the tumor cells).  You can't run vaccine trials on patients with non-functional immune systems, you need to run them as first-line treatments.  Problem is, that is not the way our clinical trials are set-up here in the US.  Normally (with a small molecule that works directly against the cancer), you test in terminal patients that have failed all other standard options, but that approach won't work with vaccines.  There are a myriad of other potential reasons some vaccines don't work, or don't work on a high enough percentage of people, but every vaccine trial should require a functioning immune system as a prerequisite for admittance to the trial. Also, we need to understand that even if a vaccine only works on a low percentage of people, it still has tremendous value to those it will help.  I read a report on a trial they did at Stanford with a leukemis vaccine, and 2/6 patients went into complete remission with just vaccine treatment, but 2/3rds had no response.  That would normally be a bad result for a drug, but IMHO that was a hell of a good result for those 2 people.  What we need to do is understand why it worked for 2/6 but not the other 4, instead of giving up on the comcept.

Tedd

ccfighter
Posts: 370
Joined: Jan 2012

Vaccines of course have a hard time navigating to tumor cells because those cells kill the T cells trying to attack them, evading the immue system.  Vaccines have not really seemed to be able to get around that one.  Also it is true that the immune system needs to be functional in order to be effective, stated over and over in litrature.  Inovio has started their testing in precancerous and never befire treated patients with cervical dysplasia with good results.  The ADXS11-001 has been tested in late stage and seems to eliminate tumor burden in some people, reduce it in others, and then have no effect on yet others.  The immune system perhaps.  Perhaps the individual tumor characteristics. Maybe a combination. 

They do have clinical trials where they suppress the immune system with chemo before an autologus Tumor Infiltrating Lymphocytes and high dose Adesleukin.  There is one for cervical cancer, I dont know about other cancers.  There is of course Provenge for prostate cancer which extends life and is FDA approved, but it is not a cure.  Still a lot to learn.

An interesting article about vaccines and their pros/cons up and downs.  I do think they will eventually figure it out.  Dont know when, but I think they are heading in the right direction.   www.natap.org/2010/HIV/hpvvaccines.pdf

Take care.

coloCan
Posts: 1845
Joined: Oct 2009
janderson1964's picture
janderson1964
Posts: 1562
Joined: Oct 2011

Massey Cancer Center at VCU is where I get my surgeries and treatments. I feel proud to know that they are developing immunotherapies which I strongly believe is the future of cancer treatment. 

Thanks for posting that article.

janie1
Posts: 753
Joined: Apr 2011

It doesn't discourage me. I wouldn't bet the ranch on one article.
MD Anderson isn't exactly the hotbed of vaccine R&D.

manwithnoname
Posts: 390
Joined: Jun 2012

look, because this just didnt sit right, out of the 15 papers on Pubmed for vaccines and IFA, 12 of them were for Melanoma..., advanced CRC seemed to do ok though,

"Taken together, these results indicate that vaccination of colon cancer patients with survivin-2B80-88 plus IFA and IFNα can be considered to be a very potent immunotherapeutic regimen, and that this protocol might work for other cancers."

 

lilacbrroller's picture
lilacbrroller
Posts: 272
Joined: Jun 2012

what is 2b80-88 plus IFA and IFNa?  

janie1
Posts: 753
Joined: Apr 2011

Leave it to manwithnoname and his in-depth research skills and understanding... even of "fodder" lol.

smokeyjoe
Posts: 1428
Joined: Feb 2011

Thanks for the article Craig, interesting.     Soooo, why don't they inject the vaccines into the site of the tumor then and see what the response is like....kinda like Pete's doc's are doing with his treatment injection into location of the tumors.....I don't know....just a thought???? 

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3915
Joined: Nov 2010

maybe email the article author, then again save your energy.

I do know alot, but its because I have very very smart and caring friends

hugs,

Pete

tanstaafl's picture
tanstaafl
Posts: 956
Joined: Oct 2010

 PSK and cimetidine modulate dendritic cells, here and now, for about $10/month and $75/month, respectively.

pete43lost_at_sea's picture
pete43lost_at_sea
Posts: 3915
Joined: Nov 2010

only joking of course, love those mushrppms, just had some ahcc, might do a psk mouth wash before my enemas tonight.

sorry friends away from the net enjoying life. thats the things we have left after the cancer. this what everyones told me to do over the years. especially winter, and you see I do listen. mind you still doing all the supplements and alternatives but having lots and lots of fun. indulgence is healthy, I have got two massages booked for torrow.

Oh, I am up at duderstadt, they sucked out the blood for the 3rd vaccine this morning. 

I am glad my tumours appear to have been gone, shiit if they could read, they might mount a regard action and try and kill me again if they read that report.

I feel great, so with the greatest repsect, I think the article is a piece of dog poo. well worth discussing though, because it clearly explains how scientific arguments can confound the real clinical achievement issues.

Craig, thankyou sincerely, think abut the smoke screen friends, this article is the ultimate con. look it may make some valid points, but i have binned it.

I would not even waste doc N time on this, he is presenting his sucessful trial results at asco, you got to be invited, not everyones doc presents at asco. does yours ?.

I must be a sucker, I am hooked, hook line and sinker. I have faith in what I have researched and what I have experienced.

did you see the other post, I have cut all chemo out, even the micro scopic targetted stuff builds resistance. saving chemo for the very very very end, hopefully never needed.

gambling everything on the immune system. this makes my life exciting and survival a bit sweeter. if I loose, well we all going to die, but I am going to have some serious fun along the way. its an open invitation, join me, you might enjoy it also.

why build resistant tumours which makes the immune systems job harder.

did a blod test today which says I am HIV positive, go figure, I have nt had sex for way to long, and now possibly HIV. Its likely an artifact in the prevaccine blood tests.

they have these false positives before, they never result in a confirmed positive, bit it knocked me sox off for a while.

my focus is exercise, qigong, enemas, enjoying LIFE, my research and learning german and getting ready for these really interesting conferences I am attending.

I love everyone here, you know that, but the single best thing I can do for the immunotherapy revolution is stay alive.

whats more important 20 minutes on csn or 20 minutes on a treadmill getting your 15 mets ? as much as I love you all, its exercise. you can subsistitute sauna for exercise.

I had dinner tonight with lorraine, she might be my first survivor interview on the immunotherapy channel. all her GBM brain tumours have disappeared, her onc cannot explain it. We dinner with her grateful husband. we toasted doc N. I won't tell Lorraine about the article, she is so happy, she has outlived her prognosis. she is like an amazing grandmother. If we do an interview, I will invite you to the formal launch of the immunotherapy channel with the worlds my wonderful hopeful stories.

We all can believe and do what we want, thats whats beautiful about free will and freedom of the press. the tradegy is that people will read the article and be negative on immunotherapy. thats life the carnage continues, I cannot help that, or you my friends. We can each just run our own race and try to live it joyfully.

did you hear about big pharma trying to charge 6K for a small antigen used to make these vaccines ? so the price doubles from 6K to 12K.

the conspiracy theories are all trivial re health and big pharma, whats serious is the blantant profiteering and capitalistic process we are all complicit in supporting. 

Can you see it, so chemo's profits will dimish, they are positiining themselves to profit on the next medical innovation wave. And the other day I heard of 

successful cancer anitbodies like removab being purchased by big pharma and going nowhere. takeout the competitive products and keep profits maximised. I think we need to change the the system friends. I cannot do it on my own, but I think its time we put it on the agenda. if not us, than who ?

some trivia, the three courses of removab over the last 2 weeks cost 600USD each. so 1800USD was the drug cost associated with the main component of my successful treatment.

I am asking doc N if I can be the first to have gamma delta cells direct injected into the remmants of my peritoneal mets and liver. I will video it, should make real interesting video. to risk your life in the pursuit of saving it, now that has so much appeal to me. consider this, I now have no visible mets, I possibly have more to loose, but I am disposed to take the riskier, path least travelled.

hugs,

Pete

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