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multiple recurrence after surgeries ?

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

not sure if I am having another recurrence, was diagnosed by the gastro doctor in 2009, thought I had a hemmoroid so I finally went to check it out, he immediatly reffered me to a colorectal surgeon to be seen that same day, the surgeon said it appeared to be anal cancer and concurred with the gastro that it was not a hem, I was scheduled for surgery the next week, unfortunatley he did not get clear margins so after healing and after a fissurectomy I was back in for removal of this anal tumor, needless to say it was an uncomfortable procedure and healing,had a recurrence in 2011 again another surgery without clear margins, then decided to leave LI and seek help in NYC, had another surgery early 2011 in NYC and thought this was my cure all, tummor was back by Oct 2011 had a biopsy and 2 part surgery, took out most of tumor, healed and went back in to take out rest and have plastic surgery, spent a week in the hospital and home for a few months with painful recovery, life finally getting back to normal, work etc, less accidents, in PT for pelvic floor strenghtining, on a 3 month visit, all seemed good, but now I have had a little blood spotting, a little itching, and discomfort, could it really be back ?

z's picture
z
Posts: 1267
Joined: May 2009

Do you know why the standard protocal for anal cancer wasn't used. Chemo/radiation? Lori

sandysp's picture
sandysp
Posts: 852
Joined: May 2011

That's a lot of surgeries. Why didn't they use the protocol is my question too?

All the best,
Sandy

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Hi Lori and Sandy, both doctors felt the surgery would be better than the side effects of treatment, the tumor was so close to the sphincter as well, I was able to avoid a colostomy though and thankful for that, however I am afraid what my next visit holds, I truly fear it is back

Marynb
Posts: 1134
Joined: Aug 2012

Sorry to hear of your recurrences, q. Are you in USA? Wondering why in the world they wouldn't have given you chemo and radiation after the surgery? Were there other health problems? Hang in there and keep the faith!

BC331
Posts: 12
Joined: Nov 2012

So sorry to hear this. I would definitely get it checked out. Hopefully, all will be well. Keep us posted.

AZANNIE's picture
AZANNIE
Posts: 395
Joined: Mar 2011

Sorry you've had to go through so much. Like the others have stated, I wonder why protocol wasn't followed? My tumor was near the sphincter and that's why I didn't have surgery - had chemo and radiation. Hoping for the best for you!

Ann

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

I appreciate your support, my visit is scheduled for 11/28, I am counting the days, being in NY I felt so confident that this last surgery was successful, I guess the extent of the last surgery and clear margins was the deterrent from treatment, in the event of treatment they did have me meet with the radioligist but based on results it was not recommended. I am agonizing each day wether or not it is back and my symptoms are real or wether I am letting my mind run away with me over thinking ? Has anyone seen a similar situation on the boards ?

Angela_K
Posts: 374
Joined: Jan 2011

I know it can be hard, but try to stay centered and confident. I would certainly question the process and even seek a second opinion from another oncologist with a wealth of experience in treating anal cancer. Remember, YOU are the customer. You must be your own best advocate and question everything. As survivors, we've all had times that we have 'over thought.' Knowing that you are in the best hands possible should bring some solace. Just make sure that you are.

Marynb
Posts: 1134
Joined: Aug 2012

I would surely get a second opinion at this point. I have not seen a similar situation on the boards. As far as I have read on the boards, radiation and chemo are standard treatment, even with surgery. Try to takr one day at a time right now and don't imagine the worse. I would line up another cancer center to get a seond opinion.

Hugs.

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Thanks to all for the encouragement and support, it is wonderful to have a place to vent fears and concerns, I'm sure you have had the reactions from the people close to you that I am gettting which is "don't worry, I'm sure everything is fine" it is so frustrating that they don't quite understand what I am internalizing, I will be back for more hugs and kind words over the next few days, bless you all :)

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Hope you all had a Happy Thanksgiving, I am counting the days to my appointment which is 3 more days, have not slept well due to all that is weighing on my mind and now my symptoms seem to be increasing, this weekend I had quite a bit of bleeding compared to the spotting in the last few weeks, the discomfort and knife like feeling has also increased anyone have this with a recurrence ?

sephie's picture
sephie
Posts: 543
Joined: Apr 2009

I am 3 years 4 months post... MD Anderson says no reoccurence... BUT i have bleeding and knife like pain with almost all of my bm's.( they are soft) .. they say radiation permanent damage but it does scare the heck out of me. sephie

7243
Posts: 223
Joined: Feb 2011

Ok .... Hang in there. I can imagine you're very anxious. I reread the string here and want to send a supportive note to help you stay grounded for the next couple days before your appointment. Take a few deep breaths and try to focus a bit. I had very similar symptoms after my treatment ... I felt certain it was something bad, but all was well. Perhaps a soak in a warm tub, pain meds like Tylenol or Motrin to relieve your pain, and some nice holiday music. Focus on you inner strength ... You are strong I'm certain of that because you've been through quite a bit and are going strong. Gather your inner power and repeatedly affirm positive thinking and reject negative thoughts.

Maybe download some positive affirmations or guided imagery to you iPhone or other device to listen to. Bellruth Naperstek's guided imagery stuff saved my sanity .... Healthjourneys.com check it out!

I'm thinking about you right now and sending positive energy! Keep us posted! Xoxo

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Thanks again for the positive energy and encouragement, 7243 I will check the site for positive affirmations and guided imagery, as well as trying to reject negative images, your note was just what I needed today and worded so well, I feel as if you really understand that yes I am strong but right now am not grounded, another sleepless night last night and I am exhausted, Sephie, I am sorry you still have these issues as well, I will think good things for you as well, I see I am not alone and appreciate eveyone taking the time to respond

Marynb
Posts: 1134
Joined: Aug 2012

I do know your fears. I am hoping for the best for you. I have had knife like pains and some bleeding since my treatments a little more than a year ago. The doctors told me it was normal. You are in my prayers.

Hugs.

Mary

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

I am welcoming the hugs :) I am sorry for your discomforts and hope they are minimal

7243
Posts: 223
Joined: Feb 2011

You're welcome ... I want to encourage u too consider a sleep aide such as ambien to get rest! It is likely you will not need it long term, but may need it to get you through this difficult time. Your heart, soul, and body require rest to be able to get through all of this! Not to mention sleeplessness can rake a toll on your immune system! Perhaps your physician could provide a prescription and some guidance for you.

I didn't want to use ambien or other drugs for anxiety, such as Xanax, however an onco-psychologist I saw stated it this way, "these are temporary tools to help through the toughest points of diagnosis and treatment" ... Part of a care plan. I needed and used them judiciously and tapered and discontinued use over time. I used guided imagery to get to sleep and took ambien when I woke up in the night (as long as i had at least 5 good hours of rest time available) to get back to sleep. All that said ... A discussion with your care-provider will give you the best medical advice regarding sleep aides.

I do recall sleepless nights filled with fear ... You are NOT alone. Keep us posted.

Xoxo. Peace!

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Great advice, I have been taking some tylenol pm but I have a very high tolerence to meds so I may as well be popping 2 m&ms lol, if the news I get tomorrow is unsettling I will certainly ask for a script, it is funny how when you get so wrapped up in your own thouhgts it gets hard to think outside the box, your advice is greatly appreciated, it is probably the advice I would have given someone but right now not thinking too clearly. I am going out to dinner tonight with a good friend and a few glasses of wine to celebrate my 50th, I will forfiet my tylenol pms tonight :)

7243
Posts: 223
Joined: Feb 2011

Wishing you FUN tonight! Hang in there ... Agree it is easier to give suggestions to others and just miss it ourselves totally!

FUN is the mission tonight!.... Keep us posted when you can!

Xoxo

horsepad's picture
horsepad
Posts: 87
Joined: Apr 2012

I wouldn't recommend ambien to anyone. My husband, an employee's mother, my doctor's brother in law all died as a result of ambien. Please research the side effects, and suicide while under the influence of ambien. In my opinion, Ambien should be taken off the market.

7243
Posts: 223
Joined: Feb 2011

Im very sorry to hear your sad story and apologize if my suggestion to explore the use of a sleep meds caused you additional pain.

You are so right that ambien and many medications have terrible side effects for some and are effective for others. And your re-emphasis on the fact that it is wise to discuss fully any medication (OTC or presvription) at its side effects with our physician is very much appreciated.

Again I'm so sorry to hear of your tremendous loss ...

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Horsepad I am also sorry for your loss, and will keep your warnings with me.
To all, my update today is as follows, had my appt today with my colorectal surgeon/oncologist, after discussing my symptons I had an exam and a scope (with camera) , there was a spot that she saw so she did two biopsies in the offfice (extremely painful)both during and after. She said I could have them done like before in the OR but she would have to bring me back in another day and chose to do it while I was there. Biopsy results will be available on Monday and I have a folow up visit with her in two weeks. I asked her what her best guess was and she said not to let it ruin my weekend and that it could just be inflamation, I was in so much pain at that point and didn't have my wits about me to ask then why did we have to biopsy ? Wouldn't inflamation just be inflamation ? Any feedback is welcome.

Thanks in advance

AZANNIE's picture
AZANNIE
Posts: 395
Joined: Mar 2011

Ouch! I don't know why they can't numb the area for exams. My biopsy was under anesthesia, but I've had the camera and anoscope and it is uncomfortable. Hopefully, yours is just inflammation and the dr just wants to make sure.

Ann

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

My previous biopsies were all under anesthesia so yes this one took me by suprise, my other biopsies all turned out to be a follow up surgery so I am wondering if you have heard of someone having a biopsy that turned out to just be inflamation ? If anyone has had or heard of this happening, please respond, I can't really wrap my head around the whole inflamation/biopsy combo. thanks

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Horsepad I am also sorry for your loss, and will keep your warnings with me.
To all, my update today is as follows, had my appt today with my colorectal surgeon/oncologist, after discussing my symptons I had an exam and a scope (with camera) , there was a spot that she saw so she did two biopsies in the offfice (extremely painful)both during and after. She said I could have them done like before in the OR but she would have to bring me back in another day and chose to do it while I was there. Biopsy results will be available on Monday and I have a folow up visit with her in two weeks. I asked her what her best guess was and she said not to let it ruin my weekend and that it could just be inflamation, I was in so much pain at that point and didn't have my wits about me to ask then why did we have to biopsy ? Wouldn't inflamation just be inflamation ? Any feedback is welcome.

Thanks in advance

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Although the doc said results of yesterdays biopsies would be available on Monday, I recieved a phone call today to say the results were in, the results showed another carcinoma yet non-invasive, based on my history doc has me scheduled for the OR next week to do a biopsy under anesthesia, just feeling better from yesterdays discomfort and not looking foward to this :(

Marynb
Posts: 1134
Joined: Aug 2012

I am sorry to hear about the results of your biopsy. You are in my prayers. I hope you don't mind, but are you being seen at a reputable academic center hospital that specializes in this cancer ? I just cannot understand why in the world you were not treated with chemo and radiation, the accepted evidence based protocol? Did you opt out of that willingly. It just boggles my mind that you have had all these recurrences. If you are not being treated at a reputable cancer hospital, I would highly recommend getting to one asap.

Let's hope that this is a false positive. Praying for you!

mp327's picture
mp327
Posts: 3076
Joined: Jan 2010

I have to second Mary's suggestion. I cannot understand why chemo/radiation was not done. Since you have had surgery already, I'm not sure if it is a feasible option now or not, but in your shoes, I would sure find out. Unfortunately, there are quite a few doctors who aren't well-informed about anal cancer and the standard treatment. Please find a doctor who is if that's the case with your current doctor.

bettybutler
Posts: 1
Joined: Nov 2012

I just want to give you an online hug. My prayers are with you.

7243
Posts: 223
Joined: Feb 2011

QV ... Let me first say I am so very sorry this is the outcome. Now, I am Not a doctor, but after having issues with the appropriate diagnosis of this cancer at a national cancer institute - teaching institution that is likely good at what they do in high volume ... But did not deal with anal canal cancer much, I HIGHLY recommend you seek out a second opinion at cancer center that deals with anal cancer, especially if the team diagnosing you now is the same team who diagnosed and treated you in the past. I will friend you if you want to discuss you details like where you live and how to get into a comprehensive cancer center - teaching institution. Also look at the NCCN guideline 2012 for the standard of care re; anal cancer.... Look at the NCCN guideline and the physicians who are on the committee that developed the standard and see if any of their practice locations are close to you.

If nothing else .... Print the guideline and take it to your appointment with your team and ask them how the are treating you in relation to the guideline. This is a rare cancer ... If they say they treat many rectal cancers ... Ok fine, but rectal cancer is not the same as anal canal cancer.

Ok ... Praying for you!!! Friend any of us and email using the CSN mail and set urself up to receive private mail if you want to talk privately re; specifics u may not share her in public forum.

You have time .... Try not to feel rushed by your anxiety .... However i understand in my own way ... and this weekend will likely be very difficult given the unknown and upcoming appointments.

As friends here say, it is Best to be in a place you feel comfortable and fully trust your team.

I want to send this bit of encouragement too .... Past treatment is in the past ... You can not change what is done, however ... You can take charge of the present situation. Arm yourself with knowledge, question your team and make a plan based on evidence Based medicine.... You are strong! And you are not alone .... We are here to assist in any way you desire!

Deep breath and a huge hug from me to you this very moment. And if you need more information from your surgeon before the weekend ... Call the office and ask to speak with her ... Have your questions written down and get what you need to be able to at least manage your anxiety this weekend.

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Thanks to all since my last post for the prayers, hugs, advice, and encouragement, it is all greatly appreciated. To answer a few of the questions about the protocal, my results showed carcinoma in-situ which is why I feel they did not use chemo/radiation, and chose surgery, I asked the doctor about treatment going foward since we have discussed it in the past but she said we will see what the biobsy in the OR shows on Thursday, as of now it is pre-invasive, so I will follow up and let you all know.To answer more questions I am at a major facility in NYC, I switched there a little shy of 2 years ago, prior to that I was at a large hospital on Long Island, I loved my doctors there but felt I wasn't getting the best info or getting it quickly enough, my last surgery on LI we discussed chemo/radiation, I met with the radioligist and then waited well over 2 weeks for my doctor to meet with the tumor board and make a decision as to treatment or another surgery, that is when I moved on,when I went to the city they recommended another surgery, after the next recurrence was a wide excision along with plastic surgery, flap etc, that I felt would be the end all, after a week in the hospital and 6 weeks of not sitting I thought this was the cure, now I'm frustrated.Having a few surgeries on LI and now a few in NYC I have lost count of surgeries and just want to know it's gone. I have pre-surgical on Mon and will, have the biopsy on Thursday so this is going to be a long week, I thank you all so much and so glad I have found this board. 7243, yes please do friend me, that would be great, I am not too savvy on changing settings etc. but I will take a look

mp327's picture
mp327
Posts: 3076
Joined: Jan 2010

Thanks for the additional info about your case. Carcinoma-in-situ is not treated with chemo/radiation, so I have a better understanding of your circumstances now. I hope all goes well for you on Thursday and I'm sure you'll keep us posted. Best wishes!

Marynb
Posts: 1134
Joined: Aug 2012

You have been through so much with this. The problem with cancer is that it is sneaky and we never really know where rogue cells are hiding. With this cancer we are darned lucky that there is a systemic treatment with the chemo and radiation. Some rare cancers have no systemic treatment. This isn't one of them. I am all for the belt and suspendersmapproach with cancer. Surgery if necessary, then chemo and radiation! No messing around.

Hang in there. You are lucky to be in New York near Sloan Kettering. Maybe you could get second opinions at a different hospital from where you were treated? You are in my prayers. Enough of this cancer! You need to kick this cancer to the curb for once and for all!

Hugs.

Mary

RoseC's picture
RoseC
Posts: 510
Joined: Jun 2011

Hi -

I'm sorry that I haven't chimed in before, but I have been watching your story and it's rather troubling. I'm four years out - was stage 2 but had severe problems with the chemo and am still having walking and bowel problems from the radiation. No more cancer though, which is great.

The fact that you've had more than one surgery without clear margins is worrying. I second the idea of a second opinion (or third). Your doctors seem worried about the effects of chemo and radiation - and I agree with them. Both treatments can cause lifelong side effects that for some are minimal but for others are life-altering.

My mom had carcinoma-in-situ, squamous cell in the anal region - and was treated with surgery only. She's never had a recurrence and all is well with her in that regard. But the fact that you've had numerous recurrences suggests that treatment other than surgery may be required.

You're in a tough predicament. IF you're seeing doctors well versed with anal cancer, and IF they are confident additional surgery will cure you, I would go with them and hope for the best, ie, no more recurrences.

Chemo/radiation is nothing to be taken lightly, nor (of course) is anal cancer. I wish I could be of more help - I may be adding more confusion than anything. You've been through a lot already - surgery in the anal area is not easy (as we all know). Please see if you can find a doctor with experience with anal cancer.

7243
Posts: 223
Joined: Feb 2011

Hey QV ... Thanks for the newsy note. Those details clear things up a bit ... And Its very good to hear you're in good hands!

Perhaps while you're waiting for the procedure you might have an opportunity to check out the nearest "center for living" ... Perhaps the cancer center has a complimentary care center that offers meditation information or classes? I took an 8 week mindfulness based stress reduction class - meditation. It helped me manage my crazy, out of control, thinking! Just a thought ..,

Or google "mindfulness based stress reduction" ... There is a guy by the name of John kabat Zinn who has written many books on the subject and started the 8-week programs at U Mass Medical Center.

Hang in there ... I'll drop a note in the e-mail area!

Big hug!!

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Mary, Rose,& 7243, So glad to hear from all of you, all of your advice and encouragement is appreciated, I just checked in before heading to bed, it's near midnight and I will be heading out at 6:30 tomorrow morning for my pre-surgical tests. I need to be in the city by 9:00 This is the easy part, it is Thursday I am not looking foward to, aside from the biopsy and knowing how uncomfortable I will be afterwards I do not do well with the anesteshia which of course gets me even more worked up. So all of your kind words have been comforting.

Marynb
Posts: 1134
Joined: Aug 2012

You will be in my prayers. Stay strong and keep the faith. Soon, all will be well.

Hugs.

Mary

mp327's picture
mp327
Posts: 3076
Joined: Jan 2010

I just wanted to wish you all the best today with your surgical procedure. Please let us know how things went when you are up to it.

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Thanks for the prayers and good wishes, today was the easy part, pre-op was routine and all went well, I took advantage of being in Manhattan and went to mass at St Patricks Cathedral, always seem to find inner peace there and now it is certainly needed, also had a fun twist in my day meeting and taking a picture with Emmit Smith on my walk from the subway up to the hospital :) Guess now all I can do is wait for my phone call to find out what time to arrive on Thurs for the OR

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Thanks for the prayers and good wishes, today was the easy part, pre-op was routine and all went well, I took advantage of being in Manhattan and went to mass at St Patricks Cathedral, always seem to find inner peace there and now it is certainly needed, also had a fun twist in my day meeting and taking a picture with Emmit Smith on my walk from the subway up to the hospital :) Guess now all I can do is wait for my phone call to find out what time to arrive on Thurs for the OR

Marynb
Posts: 1134
Joined: Aug 2012

I am glad you found some peace today and also had a little fun. What a beautiful day to walk around the city today! I just love St. Patrick's. I hope this week goes by pretty quickly for you. You will be in my prayers. Take good care of yourself this week. Soon, all will be well.

Sleep well.

Mary

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Thank you for the prayers, I always welcome them, I am scheduled for 8:30 tomorrow morning, and will be pulling in all the positive energy I can, I get so rattled on my way into the OR, I have a problem with anesthesia which makes me even more rattled. I feel I am in good hands with my surgeon so I also have peace with that, the board has been so comforting for me, people at home just don't get it, everyone still expects everything of you when you are falling to pieces, kids still fighting with each other etc... the list goes on, I feel here everyone has understanding and compassion. I will keep you posted.

7243
Posts: 223
Joined: Feb 2011

I pray all went well today! Love to you! Xo

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

I truly appreciate the prayers, as rattled as I have been, I felt the power of prayer in the OR and found it self calming, I tend to get myself all worked up but I knew my prayer warriors were in full swing, I could feel it inside. My surgery was at 8:30, I went into recovery around 10 and was released at 6:30, came home with percocet but I am still in quite a bit of pain, looking at the clock for the next dose about 2 hrs before schedule. My surgeon came to speak to me afterwards but I was still pretty groggy, all I retained is to change my appt from next week to the week after, she also spoke to my husband, he told me she said she would not be recommending radiation as to the permanent damage and incontinence, however he believes she will be looking to do another surgery after the holidays. I called the office today but haven't heard back from her I guess now I won't hear anything until Monday, she also said it would take a while for the pathology to come back, I only wish I was more alert when she came to see me. I will just be taking it easy this weekend, not sure about work on Monday yet, the way I feel right now I can't imagine going to work but we all know a few days make a big difference so I will see what Mon morning brings. All your support has been a blessing :)

Marynb
Posts: 1134
Joined: Aug 2012

I am glad this day is over for you. Take it easy this weekend. I hope you don't mind me bringing this up, but have you thought about getting a second opinion? I think, with all your recurrences, it might be wise. I really would not mess around after so many recurrences.

Rest well and take care.

Hugs.

Mary

Marynb
Posts: 1134
Joined: Aug 2012

Hi again. I am just thinking about your situation. You say that there have been mutliple recurrences and that the reason that they did not follow the accepted protocol of chemo and radiation is because your original diagnosis was anal carinoma in situ. So, if it were in situ, and only surgery was indicated because it was contained to that one tumor, why would it keep spreading? It seems that there must have been rogue cells spreading, doesn't it? With so many recurrences, wouldn't a systemic apporach be indicated? It seems a little troubling that the doctors are telling you that radiaton would be too damaging, yet the cancer keeps spreading. Just my two cents. There may well be a valid reason that the doctors cannot give you chemo and radiation and you just have to keep cutting the tumors out, but I would surely get a second and maybe third opinion.

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

Yes Mary, these are all good thoughts and I will discuss them when I meet for my follow up, I feel I am on my second opinion since I was treated on LI during 2009 & 2010 and now in Manhattan 2011 & 2012, my current doctor is a colorectal surgical oncologist where as before I was seeing 2 doctors, a colorectal surgeon and an oncologist, they have all explained to me that this type of cancer spider webs , when I was treated on LI and met with the radioligist, I was told there may be damage that would be irreversible and now getting the same feedback here, I wish I had a crystal ball, I really do trust my doctor and researched her before making the move, she does specialize in anal cancer with sphincter preservation, and now that I have gone through months of PT and gotten back so much of the control I lost I fear the loss again and feel she will try and not damage that, the approach she has taken was much more agressive than I had on LI, the wide excision, plastic surgery etc. I just felt that after that I would not be dealing with this now so it is quite overwhelming

NYinTX's picture
NYinTX
Posts: 64
Joined: Feb 2013

have you obtained a consult from SLoan-Kettering in NYC? or MDAnderson in Houston, TX? these are the top anal cancer centers.....the surgeries without chemoradiation go against the accepted protocol of the  http://www.nccn.org/professionals/physician_gls/pdf/anal.pdf

it sounds to me like poor medical practice if not straight illiteracy in treating anal cancer.....and they sure made a lot of $$$$$ from the multiple trauma they put you through.....

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

I am at MSKCC and have great confidence in their decision, I also met with the radiological oncologist last week who confirmed with my surgeons decision to hold off on the chemo/radiation and start the aldara, at this point if I had stayed with my LI doctors I probably would have proceeded with treatment, again not having a cystal ball at this time I have to have faith

qv62
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 2012

the surgical biopsy results came back as another carcinoma in situ, I went in last week for a follow up and the doctor is recommending another excision, she does not want to radiate unless she goes in and finds it is invasive. The knife like pain she said is yet anothe fisture, I have pre op Jan 2nd and surgery Jan 11th to excise the growth , I will be in the hospital for a few days and she said 4-6 weeks of a painful recovery, having been down this road before I keep hopping on and off the pity train, I am thankful I won't be missing Christmas and thankful to all of you on the board :)

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