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Does a post like this "there is healing in the name of Jesus" posted in the Cancer Forums hurt or help Religion?

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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Joined: May 2005

This may get pulled/flagged/deleted, or all of Thee above but here goes...
Recently, a member made a post with the title "there is healing in the name of Jesus" and it had a link to a video with a comment saying "repeat the words in this song over and over. Only God can grant healing and miracles."
By member I mean someone who joined the same day or 1-2 days earlier, does not have a profile or diagnosis, the only friend(s) they have listed have similar profiles, and all they posted was the "there is healing in the name of Jesus" post.

Do you think they are truly religious or are they just making a post to stir things up?
Do you think that is does anything good to promote (in this case) Christianity or does it hurt that religion?
Do you think that if someone made a post saying "there is healing in the name of Mohamed" or another religious icon, that people would be as upset if others asked that the post be placed in this forum instead of the specific Cancer Forums or would they stand up for it with the same fervor?

I would find that post to be offensive even on here because it's claiming there is only one true God and if one had a different faith that they would/could not be helped. It does more to divide people than to bring us together. We all came from somewhere, we all have more in common than some may think.

Any opinions for or against this or is it really insignificant.
-p

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

(Fleetwood Mac reference)

I was pleased to discover, at least on the forum where I found it, that it had already been flagged as offensive, sparing me the effort.

Personally, I find such an egregious post to be short of the mark on a number of level.s Of course, the religious one you point to is is the most obvious but perhaps the least dangerous.

Of greater peril is the notion that some folks will buy into this and allow it to afffect the nature of their care, probably to their detriment, and I find this extremely offensive.

Finally, I consider it offensive to the intelligence of the majority of the members of this site (there are obvious exceptions) and therefore consider it a personal affront to me.

In any event, I would think that mot people of the religion associated with the one linked to the post would consider it embarrassing, perhaps even a cruel satire of their beliefs.

Take care, my friend,

Joe

wolfen's picture
wolfen
Posts: 1198
Joined: Apr 2009

I think that you bring up some valid points. As for the "member" that posted on the colon board, I wasn't quite sure what the motive was, since they posted the same message on several boards. I would imagine that if anyone of any religious belief posted on an inappropiate board, people would be upset. I also think it's human nature not to want to be told what to do. Throw in the factor that it's a stranger whose belief's differ from our own and as Emeril says "BAM". I've seen a few heated discussions on this board also, but these seem to resolve when the persons involved realize what board they are on and become more respectful.
Although I was raised in a Christian home, I no longer have the faith I once had. I don't really think a post of this type is beneficial to Christianity, especially since there is no accompanying background on the poster. I find that some who pretend to be Christians are overzealous and come across with a "better than you are attitude". I also have friends who I feel are true Christians in the sense that they really care about their fellow man.
Sadly, I can't think of a single person I know that is of another faith, so I can't comment much on the other question. I think there is "bad publicity" for many religions based on the actions of the few who make the news.
I think we should be respectful of others no matter "what" or "if" a belief exists. We should act like a family(maybe we do).LOL My hubby and Johnnybegood are Christians, strong in their faith. My son is an Atheist. I haven't yet figured out what I am.

Luv,

Wolfen

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

Phil, I am trying to remember what my reaction would have been to something like this when I was an atheist. I probably would have scoffed, said that is really stupid and gone about my business. I am old enough that when I was an atheistic teen, I had to endure religious Christmas plays, prayers at events such as graduation, etc. I just kept my mouth shut, didn't bow my head and went about my business.

Now, as a Christian, I would not be offended at all if a Muslim or Buddhist posted something similar on an open forum such as this cancer board. I would silently say that I didn't agree maybe but would not be offended.

I find these sorts of things no more offensive than the constant push for alternative medicine, exercise, etc. Those people, to me, are more obnoxious in pushing their "agenda" than any religious reference that I have seen. However, I see them being defended when people take offense. Why the difference. They are both pushing their ideas of "cures" for cancer which is what should be taken offense at. That to me, on this cancer site, is what we should be lobbying against. No one should be touting their opinion as a cure all without backing it up with substantial evidence of people cured. It is a total injustice and I see people making decisions about their care following some of these people and it could be to the jeopardy of their lives.

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
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I'm agnostic but one thing I believe in is that one does not need Religion in order to have faith in a supreme being or whatever one wants to label it. I don't believe that too many people would take offense to other faiths being posted in the way that the post in question was but I'd bet you dollars to donuts (???) that whoever posted that initially would take GREAT offense to a post like that. It leaves no room for other ideas or faiths.

I am really very surprised at how you equate posting about one's faith to medical treatment options for cancer. I fail to see any connection at all. Nutrition and exercise (when done under supervision) doesn't kill people (usually). Living a healthy lifestyle just sort of makes sense. Eating only fatty foods and drinking only soda will kill people who don't have cancer. Sort of the old Garbage in, Garbage out thing.
When a person has cancer and goes to a doctor, I don't believe that they often say:
"we have three options..
Chemo
Nutrition and exercise
and Prayer"
I do not doubt that there are some who do believe that but I've never heard of it.

Laurettas, with cancer as I'm sure you've seen, there is no one size fits all for treatments. What worked for one may or may not work for another. We all get cancer for different reasons, we all get cured (or not) by different methods. It's nothing like breaking one's arm where you set it, keep it stable, and it heals. I think it's VERY important to use everything that is at our disposal to help us beat cancer. I'm glad they are defended. Many times it's not reciprocated though and people attack chemo as if it's some sort of sure-fire death ray with absolutely no merit at all when it has helped millions of people. It's not a two-way street much of the time. I wish it were but it ain't.

Maybe praying does cure cancer. I have seen too many people on this site die even though they have incredibly strong faith. People may say "it's God's plan". Who knows, maybe it is. The Lord works in mysterious ways as they say...

"No one should be touting their opinion as a cure all without backing it up with substantial evidence of people cured." I agree. Mainly because there is NO CURE ALL. We do have many members who have beaten cancer through nutrition and are in remission or "cured" for lack of a better term. I don't know of any who have been "cured" using TCM but I'm sure they are out there. As far as studies go, I read the other day where it takes on average $10 Billion to bring a drug from conception to FDA approval. Who, other than the pharmaceutical industry, can afford to do the studies? Also, drugs are derived from natural substances. That doesn't always mean natural is better but it also doesn't discount that they could have a benefit to many.

I think people need to have open minds with cancer, beliefs of faith, and other things where there are differing opinions and where NO ONE KNOWS the absolute truth.

Back to the original post though, people who join a site just to "spread the word" are in a class by themselves...
Thanks for commenting.
Everyone else too....
-phil

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

Phil, I would like to know those who have been healed by nutrition. Most of the stories I have heard are quite sketchy--many began their alternative therapies after standard treatment which may have been the healing source but the alternatives are what gets the credit.

If we are going to censor all religious content, then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate. And please don't try to say that yoga is merely exercise--those who are knowledgeable about the practice state that it is impossible to separate the "exercise" component from the religious because the positions themselves have a religious connotation, just most people don't understand that.

Religion has been studied for its health effects and has come out with positive effects. I had an interesting experience one time myself. I found myself at a doctor's office quite early one time so I sat and prayed the rosary--meditation but I'm sure not an acceptable one on this forum--and when I had my blood pressure checked, it was lower than it had been for years. My father-in-law, who had been away from the Church for years, was dying of cancer, in ICU, gasping for breath while on oxygen, vitals through the roof. A priest came in, heard his confession, the nurse saw his vitals drop dramatically on the monitors, and he went home to die breathing comfortably with no oxygen. My sister-in-law had also left the Church, got pregnant, had an abortion and a few years later got married. She wanted children but could not conceive for several years. Started going to fertility treatments but nothing happened, gave that up and eventually decided to go back to Church. Went to confession, confessed her abortion--at some point I guess she had decided that it was a wrong choice--and was pregnant within two months. And my husband's cure from Hodgkin's disease. Did you read the thread where I explained that? Those are just examples within my own immediate family. So, for me to deny that religion is helpful, would be silly. I have seen too much in my own family to deny the goodness of faith in the God who is Love.

Thanks, Phil, for starting this thread. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this aspect of our cancer journey.

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PhillieG
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"Phil, I would like to know those who have been healed by nutrition. Most of the stories I have heard are quite sketchy--many began their alternative therapies after standard treatment which may have been the healing source but the alternatives are what gets the credit.

If we are going to censor all religious content, then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate."

In the cases I am familiar with, the people did do surgery then did the nutritional stuff afterwards instead of chemo. Who knows for CERTAIN if that cured them. No one. I can't PROVE that chemo helped me. I did it and so far so good. You are asking what I believe are answers to questions that can't be answered with 100% certainty. Yoga certainly CAN be spiritual but it can also be practiced just for the exercise benefits. That's up to the person who is doing it. I practiced yoga for a few years many years ago and it certainly was NOT religious for me. But that's me. No one pounces on Christianity, it just happens that they really seem to be the primary group who "preaches" here. Since May 2005 i have yet to see a post in the colon cancer forum by any other faith. Believe me, if the Dali Llama started posting his beliefs in the colon cancer forum I'd have the same reaction. There are certain faiths whose "duty" is getting more people on board. If they want to recruit, maybe they could post in this forum since this is the one that deals with that topic. It seems similar to me that if I had a problem with my car I would not take it to a plumber to be fixed. I'd go to a car mechanic. We have to respect others but they have to respect us too. What's wrong with that?

Your comment, If we are going to censor all religious content is way off. This has nothing to do with censorship at all so please don't try to make it like it is cause it ain't. Like I commented above ALL RELIGIONS WOULD BE TREATED THE SAME. it's a matter of putting posts in the proper thread. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. I have absolutely no problem with what a person wants to believe, it's just that those who post like the example I brought up are for one, in violation of the Terms & Conditions of this site. It would be similar to me that if whensomeone posted that they would include their sexual preference. I really don't care for one and two, there is a forum for that so if a person wishes to discuss that they are free to discuss it there.

I fail to see how your comparisons to exercise and nutrition fit into this discussions their than some people fail to accept there are other opinions just as valid as theirs is...
-p

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

Phil, just because people don't know that something they do is religious in content, doesn't mean that it is not. I had a friend who went to her church and participated in some activities that she didn't find out until later were Wiccan rituals. The same is true with yoga. I have heard several very knowledgeable people who teach yoga who say that you cannot erase the religious component of the yoga exercises. They are part of the ritual. I would guess the same would be true of the meditating on nothingness--that is Buddhist in origin. Now if people wanted to ponder the beauty of creation or music or whatever, that would be different but the whole nothingness thing is part of Buddhism. Maybe someone has tried to separate it, but that is the source.

I equate nutrition and exercise to religious promotion because some are trying to say the same thing. If you do this, you will be cured. It is not true for religious practices, nor is it true for nutrition and exercise. I still think that anyone who promotes anything on these sites as a cure ought to be chastised.

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PhillieG
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One man's ceiling is another man's floor...
You seem to be looking for the boogeyman. I really do not understand your point at all.
So if it were up to you, this site would not exist at all since promoting any possible cure is linked to religion somehow?
You have your perceptions of motives behind people's actions but aren't meditation and prayer similar? Meditation looks inwards though, prayer doesn't. I know that's a big No-No with most organized religions...There was a point in time where you could be killed for having a translated version of the bible
I believe the answers lie within us but that's me

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Buckwirth
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"...just because people don't know that something they do is religious in content, doesn't mean that it is not." 

In Australia the Aborigines go on walkabout, basically a long walk with no particular destination, but with a religious component. Based on your Yoga example, someone who goes hiking alone is practicing the aboriginal religion, whether they realize it or not.

Religious ritual can include planting, harvesting, butchering (sacrifice and giving thanks), dressing up and begging for candy, giving gifts, hiding eggs, lighting candles, keeping relics, bathing, shaving (or not), even the type of hat you wear, or the color of your shirt. Doing any one of those things might be part of a religious ritual, at the same time they can each be completely secular. Any meaning given to them is given by the participant.

And Yoga? Most of the folks I know who practice it are a bit confused/confusing regarding religion. Many are pseudo Buddhists, many are new age spiritualists, and no small number are Christian or one of the other mainstream religions. Still others are agnostic or atheist, and are only partaking for the perceived health benefit of maintaining body flexibility and tone.

Most new sects within any religion define themselves by what the old sect got wrong (depicting Jesus on the cross as opposed to just depicting a cross, or claiming that halloween is pagan or Santa is satan) or how the general culture has lost its way and become sinful. It is an us vs them mentality, creating an evil other (real or perceived) that has the effect of cementing the new group together.

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Buckwirth
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 "...then we need to ban all talk about yoga--it is a religious exercise, meditation on nothingness, it is a religious practice, etc. etc. I find offense that these non-Christian religious practices are tolerated and accepted but any mention of Christianity is pounced upon as being inappropriate." 

Yoga has roots in religion, but is not of necessity religious. Much like Shaolin Kung Fu, the practitioners do not have to believe in the myths/legends that were part of its origins. Another way of thinking about it is crackers and wine. In a Catholic ceremony, they are the blood and body of Christ. At a party, they are refreshments.

The rules are pretty clear (CSN Terms and Conditions) on religion:

No User shall use the Service to proselytize. The religious beliefs of all faiths are to be respected. The spiritual beliefs of all Members are to be respected regardless of whether they are in accordance with the beliefs of any religious group or teachings of other Members. No User shall disrespect or judge the beliefs or decisions of other Members on religious, spiritual, or other issues including but not limited to lifestyle, relationships, and medical care.

And on medical advice:

No User shall advise other Users about medical care or attempt to influence their medical care decisions. Members are encouraged to share their own medical experiences, but medical advice to others is strictly prohibited, regardless of a Member's medical education, credentials, or experience. The purpose of the Cancer Survivors Network is a peer to peer support service.

So, as I read it, and as it seems to be practiced, the key word is proselytize. Someone requesting thoughts and prayers, or saying their loved one has gone to meet a particular deity is acceptable. Making a statement that the only way to a cure is through the grace of Shiva is probably going to get deleted. This paragraph covers respect for others treatment decisions, so it would also mean that someone who chooses to do TCM or the Hoxsley treatment should be treated with the same degree of respect as someone stating that they are an animist.

The second part may get violated more than we care to admit. Personally, I see someone posting on seemingly every treatment question that we should consider some traditional therapy that they happen to have faith in, combined with some criticism of the current standard of care, is both proselytizing and attempting to influence medical care decisions. The same could possibly be said of those who seem to post whatever it was they just read, or whatever message they got at the latest for profit seminar they attended. Of course, that is just my opinion, and I am not a moderator on this forum.

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

This might explain better what I am trying to say about yoga:

Swami Sivasiva Palana writing in the January 1991 issue of Hinduism Today: "A small army of yoga missionaries . . . beautifully trained in the last 10 years, is about to set upon the Western world. They may not call themselves Hindu, but Hindu knows where yoga came from and where it goes."

What is Yoga?

According to Iyengar Yoga Resources, yoga comes from the Sanskrit word yuj meaning to yoke or unite.

In India, yoga is considered one of the six branches of classical Hindu philosophy and is referred to in ancient Indian scriptures, the Vedas. Its goal is to reach kaivalya — "ultimate freedom" — by releasing the soul from the chains of cause-and-effect [karma] which tie the person to continual reincarnation. Yoga uses physical exercises, powers of concentration and breathing techniques, as well as meditation, to achieve that end.

Father James Manjackal, a popular retreat master in India, described yoga to Catherine Maria Rhodes of the Catholic Media Coalition in this way: It is a spiritual discipline purporting to lead the soul to samadhi, the state in which the natural and divine become one.

"It is interesting to note that postures and breathing exercises, often considered to be the whole of yoga in the West, are steps three and four towards union with Brahman in the East," Father Manjackal said.

'Christian' yoga?

Many Western yoga practitioners claim yoga transcends religion and can be practiced independent of its Hindu roots — or that it can even be "Christianized," becoming, in effect, "Christian yoga."

But many experts don’t believe such a thing is possible.

"Yoga renamed is still Hindu," said Subhas R. Tiwari, a professor at the Hindu University of America, who holds a master’s degree in yoga philosophy.

Tiwari finds "Christianizing" yoga suspect, as well as wrong-headed. "This effort to extricate yoga from its Hindu mold, and cast it under another name, is far from innocent. Newly minted 'Christian yoga' is really yoga," he said.

"The simple, immutable fact is that yoga originated from the Vedic, or Hindu, culture," Tiwari added. "Its techniques were not ‘adopted’ by Hinduism, but originated from it."

"However much proponents insist that these techniques are valuable as methods, and imply no teaching contrary to Christianity," he writes, "the techniques in themselves . . . in their own context, the postures and exercises, are designed for their specific religious purpose.

"Even when they are carried out within a Christian atmosphere, the intrinsic meaning of these gestures remains intact."

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PhillieG
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But one can stretch and exercise because it makes them feel good. Religion has nothing to do with it unless you WANT it to have a religious overtone. If I'm home and have bread and some wine, am I celebrating the Eucharist or just having a glass of wine and some bread? It's what one makes of it I believe...

laurettas
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Joined: May 2011

I think the comparison would be more the opposite. It would be like a non-believer attending Mass and at Communion going up and receiving the Sacrament. Was God present in that Sacrament even though the person receiving didn't think so? I would say yes. I think it is the same with yoga. If the proper ritual is followed, I believe the spiritual happens whether we believe in it or not.

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PhillieG
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That is what it means to YOU. It wouldn't mean anything to someone who doesn't believe the same thing.
You ask if a nonbeliever were to go up and get communion and if God would be present there even though the person receiving it doesn't think so. You say He would be present. In YOUR eyes he would be present but in the nonbelievers eyes it just a bread wafer. You are taking YOUR beliefs and putting them on to another person. Do you see that's what your doing or do you think that no matter what the other person believes, that your faith and beliefs cancel out what the other person believes?

It's like trying to convince a Jewish person that Jesus was the son of God. They don't believe that (yes, a small group does believe that but most don't). You can say that Jesus was the son of God but that's your belief and the beliefs of many other like minded people.

I am not surprised that you feel the same way about yoga but some people DO practice it without ANY religious overtones no matter what others think.
Does that make any sense to you or is it religious no matter what the other person believes?
-p

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

OK so imagine that you and I were standing on top of a tall building and I had the idea that I wanted to step off the side and run with the birds that were flying around. You tried to convince me that there was gravity but I didn't believe it. Couldn't see it at all and the birds seemed to be doing fine by cruising around in the air. I stepped off. Would I fall since I didn't believe there was gravity?

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PhillieG
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Gravity is a fact. God is not, it's a belief.
Now if you were to ask if you would go to heaven or not, I'd have to say that I honestly do not know.
But don't do it!!!!
:-0

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

I believe in objective truth and not in the subjectivity of everything. We are discussing two opposing statements:
God exists
God does not exist

As far as I am concerned only one of those is true and it has nothing to do with what I think or believe.

Just as the statements:

There is a mouse in the house
There is not a mouse in the house.

Only one of those is true. Even if I don't see or "believe" that the mouse is in the house, if it is there, it is there, no matter what I think or believe.

Also, please give me another example of a person's belief determining the existence of something.

God is not an idea, he is a being and he either exists or he does not. If he does not exist then the host at communion is a piece of bread. If God does exist then the host is the Body of Christ. No matter what anyone thinks one way or the other. There is objective truth about God's existence. One person may believe that God does not exist and another believes that he does exist. Only one of the people is correct.

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Buckwirth
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Schrödinger's Cat.

Schrödinger's Cat: A cat, along with a flask containing a poison and a radioactive source, is placed in a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence. If an internal Geiger counter detects radiation, the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when we look in the box, we see the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead.

Using this as the thought puzzle, god simultaneously exists and he does not exist, so both people are correct.

laurettas
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Blake, how do you think that everything came into existence? Or has the universe always existed?

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PhillieG
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"If God does exist then the host is the Body of Christ."
If God doesn't exist, then it's just a piece of bread...

We do not know that God does, or does not exist. It's a matter of what each person believes. I am NOT saying I am right about whether there's a God or not, I've only been saying I do not agree with you.
-p

laurettas
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please give me an example of one other thing whose existence is dependent on what an individual thinks.

dasspears
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I have read this a couple of times and mulled it over in my mind but I'm just not understanding what it is that you are asking. Would you simplify it for me? It's an interesting discussion so far.

laurettas
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Phil correctly, he is saying that God's existence is dependent on what an individual thinks. If you think God exists, then he does--for you. But if I don't think God exists, then he doesn't--for me. I just want to have another example of something that exists or doesn't exist depending on someone's opinion or "belief".

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Marcia527
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Does ghosts fit the example? Some people swear they exist (and some have seen them) and others don't believe.

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PhillieG
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We are trying to know what can not be known. Some people have a hard time understanding that concept.
I don't. I'm not trying to change your mind. I just disagree that because YOU believe something that it must be true for EVERYONE.

Why can't you accept that alternative treatments can work while without a doubt, you know God exists???
-p

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

But you see Phil, I think God can be known. I need look no further than my own body. It is such a complex thing, each part working in total harmony with the others, to the point that I have no awareness of any of these things happening. When my father-in-law was on dialysis, I would walk into the treatment room and look at the massive machine that we humans had designed to replace the function of one small kidney in our bodies. I had to laugh.

Then I look to creation and see the complexity and intricacy of everything. Gosh, if the planets were not in the exact orbit, speed, everything that they are, our solar system would crash together or spin away into eternity. There HAS to be something more than us that came up with the idea of everything and the capacity to bring it all into existence. I think we still believe in science that it takes matter and energy to "create" anything. Where did the original matter and energy come from?

I think that God is graciously revealing Himself to us in many, many ways but we just choose to ignore Him. I keep asking non-believers for an alternative answer to the existence of everything but I usually just get either sputtering or some long-winded, technical explanation of something that didn't answer the question. My acceptance of the existence of God was not an emotional reaction to something but a reasoned, rational decision based upon all that I understand to be known about the world.

Almost missed your last question. I am waiting for examples of the effectiveness of alternative treatments. No one will give them to me other than their own examples which are too vague to stake my, or my husband's, life on. I was quite hesitant about Jake taking chemo because the statistics as I understood them sounded terrible. But then I got on these sites and read example after example from people like you that were living years beyond the statistics and enjoying the life that you had. If someone would point me to examples like that about alternatives, I would seriously consider them. But I am still waiting.

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PhillieG
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"There HAS to be something more than us that came up with the idea of everything and the capacity to bring it all into existence. I think we still believe in science that it takes matter and energy to "create" anything. Where did the original matter and energy come from?"
I totally agree that there is more to everything than just US. I just don't KNOW what it is. Maybe there is God it could be God's creation, but also, maybe there is no God so it was created by something we know even less about than what we think we know about God. I also believe that when we die, our spirit goes on. Where to, I have no idea .

If one were to look at medicine, it could be argued that God wanted someone to die but man, working through Satan, devised a method to cheat death by having some machines keep us alive. One coud also argue that God gave the doctor/inventor the knowledge to build such a machine. Then again, maybe a man saw a need for this machine so he just built it.

Everything is so totally random in our world for the most part.
Your last comment about wanting a list of names of alternative treatment folks. What good would it really do you? Just because 'whatever' worked for 'whoever', there's no guarantee that it will work for your husband.
Nothing has a guarantee in life except Death & Taxes and you can only cheat on one of them....

laurettas
Posts: 372
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"Everything is so totally random in our world for the most part."

I guess you see random, unconnected actions but I see a very orderly, sequential progress of things. I don't think creation is random at all. I believe creation is structured in such a precise way that any deviation would make it not work.

As far as inventions, I believe that God allows the knowledge but it is up to us to do good or evil with it. A machine that keeps someone alive so that some part of their body can heal is a good thing. But to use that machine to keep someone alive to say get social security checks would be an evil use of the machine. Same with nuclear capacity--can be used for great good or evil. It is up to us.

Concerning alternatives, if there were as little evidence of conventional medicine helping someone as I have been shown for alternative medicine, I would probably not use conventional medicine either. What would be the point? But I know many people whose cancer was eradicated by conventional means so I know that it works quite a lot of the time. To expect someone to give up most of the foods they enjoy and spend hours a day concocting potions that don't do anything seems kind of silly. We can spend our time doing a lot of other things. I just have to conclude that the people posting on the colon site don't know anyone else who has tried what they have done and it has worked. Otherwise they would give me that information.

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PhillieG
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I really doubt that we are ever going agree.
BTW: I get the feeling that you do not believe in evolution.

I believe that chemo saved my life. Can I PROVE it? No.
Maybe if I did nothing I'd be in the same place I am now.
Maybe if I tried the Alternatives I'd be at the same place I am now.
Maybe I'd be better, maybe I'd be dead.
If I ran out of options I would likely try alternatives but right now, I'm very comfortable with my choices and do not plan on changing anything.
Is this the "right" thing to do? Who's to say but it's my life and my choice.

If I had to sum up "what gets my goat" it would have to be those who claim that there is only one answer and THEY know what it is. It also annoys the hell out of me when people badmouth something they never did. How can they claim it's the boogeyman when they didn't do it? Why can't they just say "I don't know"? Why can't they acknowledge that chemo HAS helped countless people? No one expects them to say it's a walk in the park 'cause it ain't.

I just have to add that I by no means know the answers. I do not (and never claimed) to know them. I just believe that there are many things that are beyond my comprehension and will likely stay there. I would also say that I think certain things are unknowable to mankind. It's not something that makes people happy since we have an innate desire to learn

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

We may not agree but isn't it good to talk about things? I was one the questioned a lot of things but when I was told something that actually made sense, then I could accept it. The existence of God was one of those things. When I finally had it explained to me in a somewhat sensible way, I could accept it. Just couldn't go along with those who denied dinosaurs, said the earth was only a few thousand years old, etc. etc.

As far as evolution goes, I have no problem with the concept. My objection would be concerning those saying it is random and happenstance and who deny there is someone who started and is now guiding the process

What gets your goat is what I find consoling. I like knowing that there are concrete realities, that there is objective truth, and that it is knowable. My favorite subject was math--at the level I learned there was always a right answer. I couldn't function if I was so uncertain of everything that I couldn't say something was right or wrong, true or not true. It is windy today, I like being able to state that in all assurance that it is true.

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

"Everything is so totally random in our world for the most part."

I guess you see random, unconnected actions but I see a very orderly, sequential progress of things. I don't think creation is random at all. I believe creation is structured in such a precise way that any deviation would make it not work.

As far as inventions, I believe that God allows the knowledge but it is up to us to do good or evil with it. A machine that keeps someone alive so that some part of their body can heal is a good thing. But to use that machine to keep someone alive to say get social security checks would be an evil use of the machine. Same with nuclear capacity--can be used for great good or evil. It is up to us.

Concerning alternatives, if there were as little evidence of conventional medicine helping someone as I have been shown for alternative medicine, I would probably not use conventional medicine either. What would be the point? But I know many people whose cancer was eradicated by conventional means so I know that it works quite a lot of the time. To expect someone to give up most of the foods they enjoy and spend hours a day concocting potions that don't do anything seems kind of silly. We can spend our time doing a lot of other things. I just have to conclude that the people posting on the colon site don't know anyone else who has tried what they have done and it has worked. Otherwise they would give me that information.

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Buckwirth
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Yoga is both Hindu and Buddhist, and of course a strict Hindu would see a westerner practicing yoga and see it as proof that they are now pantheist/polytheist (not bloody likely), much as my neighbor seeing me decorate for Xmas and seeing it as proof I am a Christian.

Of course, Krishna says: "Whatever deity or form a devotee worships, I make his or her faith steady. However, their wishes are only granted by Me alone." (Gita 7:21-22). Little did you know that you have been Hindu all along (if you take the Hindu's at their word).

As I said before, the Shaolin priests may believe that all the Kung Fu studios are spreading their Buddhist beliefs, but the only one they are fooling is themselves.

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

Most yoga is done with a trainer or whatever you want to call them. They may be imparting their religious element into what they are leading you to do and you would have no idea.

Also, I once owned a Ouija board. I looked at it as another board game(I was an atheist). However, it gave me answers, correct answers to questions I did not know the answers to. My ignorance of what I was doing had no effect on the ability of the object to do something supernatural. Your opinions, I believe, are only valid if there is no supernatural world. Since I believe that there are beings above my human nature, I believe that the supernatural can work whether we believe or not. We merely need invite them in--even unknowingly.

But whether you believe that or not, is not the point of this discussion, is it? If someone perceives it as religious proselytizing then it should not be permitted, should it?

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Buckwirth
Posts: 1272
Joined: Jun 2010

" If someone perceives it as religious proselytizing then it should not be permitted, should it?" 

Like most sites, this one is moderated. So, my interpretation of proselytizing is not the final word, the moderator gets to have that. (btw, there is a single moderator, and her name is Greta)

dasspears
Posts: 233
Joined: Feb 2009

I have taken a yoga class before and I continue to do yoga at home. In my experience, there was never a religious overtone. We came in - went to work - we did a cool down and then we were done. Same thing at home. Get into the pose - hold and stretch and breathe and on to the next. Then drink a lot of water to rehydrate. Best form of exercise for staying flexible as one ages that I know about.

I know the post isn't abot yoga but I wanted to say something positive about it.

Thanks!!

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mariam_11_09
Posts: 693
Joined: Nov 2009

Perhaps I should send out a message 'There is healing the name of Allah' , say shahada, recite certain surahs, make Zikr and you will be healed! I think I would be shot down very quickly although it is tempting to see what the response would be and compare. Admittedly I am not up for pushing buttons, I did enough of that with my brother as a kid :)

Personally, I don't think it does any 'good' to promote religion in this way anywhere. If people came in with compassion and understanding where 'actions speak louder than words' I am sure they are more likely to win people over. I don't doubt people find healing in the name of Jesus and certainly in the name of Allah and also in other ways unknown to me. however I am not sure I fully understand why people feels so compelled to push and advertise their religions in the way they do.

laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

I would guess that people post religious things for the same reason that those pushing a diet or other alternative method do. They think they have the solution to someone's difficulty. It is done in all good will but is not always received in the way it was intended. Just as some get offended by the religious solutions, I get offended by the alternative solutions. They are all adding burdens already heavy to those with serious illnesses. None of these things is a sure thing for dealing with cancer and I just wish that people would stop pushing them like they are.

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mariam_11_09
Posts: 693
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Those people who promote nutrition or yoga or whatever as a form of healing in the same way as the Christians who say 'you will be healed in the name of Jesus' are not tolerated either. They are not doctors and have no right to a claim for a cure for cancer. No-body wants to be told how they 'SHOULD' be healed. No-one has the answer to the global healing of cancer except Allah/God/Universe/Divine (omitt the later part if you don't believe in something larger than ourselves).

Many American people are not nutritionally consicous and eating differently or meditating may improve their health considerably so this sharing can benefit many people depending on how it is done. In the same breath people on this site have shared their Christian beliefs and how it has helped them through cancer and no-one shot them down but they again didn't claim to have the 'answer'.

It is more about how it is done than what is done. As Phil has said and I repeat it 'actions speak louder than words'. If Jesus is really your healer, then whatever you do, do it with the compassion, love and tolerance that Jesus spoke about, or at least as best you can.

PS: I am not sure what site you have been on where they push alternative solutions. I have seen very little of it.

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PhillieG
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laurettas
Posts: 372
Joined: May 2011

is where I spend my time and there are numerous postings about the alternative stuff. Some of it is fine, some is quite arrogant, some accuse others of being to fearful to try it, etc. etc. No one that I have asked has yet given me a list of people they know who had active cancer brought under control.

Marcia527's picture
Marcia527
Posts: 2734
Joined: Jul 2006

I'm about to open my mouth and insert foot. I'm making a comment on something I didn't watch. If I doubt what the person who is posting is about, I don't follow their links. It could be a virus. Even if it's not a virus I refuse to contribute to their 'count'. Maybe they posted all over this site to increase their 'count' for a reason other than religion. I don't know how YouTube works but blogs you can moneyize and every click you gain a little. To do well you need high numbers. So they have to push their blog. I think high numbers gets you more attention. Just another angle.

I have a blog and one day someone left a comment and a link to his blog. I found he was a hacker (self confessed). He was following a whole string of blogs. There are some strange people out there and it's hard to know what their motivation is. I did delete the comment he left on my blog (I moderate comments,heehee, only good survive).

So in answer to your question, Phil...what was the question? Never mind. It's hard to get a straight answer out of me anyway.

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PhillieG
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Too funny Marcia

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bluerose
Posts: 1089
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I think that if you had a healing Phil I think you would look at all of this a totally different way. I think that is the case for many people who KNOW they have been touched by God in a dramatic way, as I was, and I can't really explain it any other way. When it happens the person experiences a kind of KNOWING unlike any knowing they have experienced before.

It is pretty frustrating for people like me, and there are tons of people like me out there, who have experienced some form of direct contact and in fact most of us do have that happen everyday but we just don't recognize it as that. Too much 'noise' around us so we miss the contact times, those little whispers of doubt about this and that, our 'gut' feelings. It is very frustrating not to be able to pass this amazing experience along to people who could really use the hope and belief and while I am not here to convince anyone of anything it's something I bring up once in awhile when moved by a topic that seems to touch on my experiences.

I do believe that it happens to some and not 'seeminly to' others only in that the others aren't paying attention to small things in their lives that happen. They pass them off as 'coincidences'. Because of what happened to me I know that they are not coincidencies. I personally was praying my face off before the healing happened as I was in pretty bad shape in transplant as were others who were praying for me too at the same time.

I think that most people who start to chat about their beliefs do so in good faith and my guess is that something has happened to them directly, as it did to me, and they simply want to share the good news and the hope.

I believe strongly in group prayer as well because at the time of my healing I found out later there was at least one church prayer chain praying for me. Coincidence? lol.

I don't know if I addressed the questions you asked but this is my take on postings with a religious/faith based theme. It's what came to mind and I had to type it.

Have a good day Phil.

Bluerose

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4679
Joined: May 2005

I think that there is a lot of power in what we believe. I used to brush off coincidences in the past but having cancer really tuned me in moreso to them. There hasn't been anything earth shattering but still, little things happen and I don't ignore them. Or at least I try not to ignore them. The mind/body connection is very powerful, I don't know if we'll ever really understand it. In my youth, I did psilosyben mushrooms a few times. They've been used in religious/spiritual ceremonies for thousands of years. Very many people experience what is best described as being one with God. My experience wasn't religious but it was incredibly spiritual and peaceful. They actually are doing studies at Johns Hopkins on the benefit of mushrooms for people with later stage cancer. I applied but never heard back :-(

I have a very close friend who hit a tree while skiing out West and had an out of body experience. He felt like he could have crossed over but chose not to. I have no reason to doubt him or you either. I think too that two people can have the same experience but interpret it very differently. If I were religious, I certainly could have taken my experiences as a sign from God.

I agree that most people who discuss their beliefs do it good faith. However...that really did not seem to be the case with the post I'm referring to. It seemed to strictly be a spread the word post and a hit and run. SPAM.
I don't see how it helps their cause at all.

Thanks for posting
-phil

John23
Posts: 1832
Joined: Jan 2007

Re:
"But one can stretch and exercise because it makes them feel good.
Religion has nothing to do with it unless you WANT it to have a
religious overtone. If I'm home and have bread and some wine, am
I celebrating the Eucharist or just having a glass of wine and
some bread? It's what one makes of it I believe..."

(hahaa.....)

And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!

Enjoy the healthy instincts He's given us all!

John

bluerose's picture
bluerose
Posts: 1089
Joined: Jul 2009

Even 'hit and run' posts as you describe them to me are just a sign of a person who wants to spread the word because that person so deeply believes and wants to help others. I don't know, online who really knows who anyone is and why they say and do the things they do and really, does it matter? Like you said, and I agree, people's beliefs are powerful so let's let them have those beliefs and not worry about it or question it too deeply. I don't see the point in that.

I had an out of body experience too once when I was a teen and it was so strange. I actually realized that I was looking down on myself while I was meditating and could feel the cold walls up in the corner of the room where I was watching myself. It scared me though so I somehow zoomed back into my body but I can tell you that changes you when you go through something like that. As did the healing I had.

Yup I agree different people have different ways of looking at any experience but the healing I had not only contained the feeling of heat going through me deliberately but I had an inner message confirming (in a voice but not a voice - inside - sort of like what you would think telephathy is like) confirming to my thoughts that 'yes, this is a healing from God and it won't be back)' - the cancer won't be back. I have of course had dreams before, hallucinations from bad medical reactions too, and this wasn't like any of those, not even close. I really wish you could experience something like this as I wish this for all who deal with any adversity, it changes you. The frustration of not being believed or knowing that people won't take the information as proof something is out there and watching over us is hard to handle sometimes. For that reason I like to look at people who post spiritual issues as people who KNOW the truth and just want to help.

Again, dats my 3 cents.

Have a good day Phil.

Bluerose

soccerfreaks's picture
soccerfreaks
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sep 2006

Those beliefs that you consider we should simply accept may lead to fascism, totalitariansim, slavery, racial injustice, religious intolerance (ironically), sexism, ageism, on and on.

All beliefs are not equal in merit and benign acceptance can and has led to malignancy of the worst kind. It is not just in our nature to question, it is not just our right to question, it is our moral imperative to question.

Take care,

Joe

z's picture
z
Posts: 1267
Joined: May 2009

Marcia, Off Topic, but is that a cat in your vehicle?

PhillieG's picture
PhillieG
Posts: 4679
Joined: May 2005

We got off topic a long time ago...
:-)

Angela_K
Posts: 374
Joined: Jan 2011

I didn't read all of the comments associated to your original post so my response may be repetitive . . .but here goes:

That Jesus comment didn't help one damn thing. No light bulbs went off. No one changed their beliefs. Perhaps other Christian zealots nodded their heads in agreement. But statements like that turn. me. off.

I believe in the power of good nutrition. And good medicine. And, yes, I am a firm believer in the power of abundant prayer for healing, peaceful and loving souls.

To the god/goddesses of our choice. And then living what we believe by example rather than spewing such comments on cancer survivor boards.

And I happen to consider myself a Christian. Among other things.

:)

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