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no modesty during IMRT (please don,t laugh)

muckdown
Posts: 27
Joined: Jul 2011

If Iam not mistaken one of the female techs did say take everything off put on clinic supplied pants(draw string) oh leave on your T shirt and socks I I was instructed how to lay on the table under the IMRT thing (I.ll get the name down) and put your legs in the mold.One of the girls getting you ready says pull yor pants down under your bottom(What???) anyway there is a descrete towel held in place while your doing this. The purpose here I think is to expose the dots that are on you to line up the imrt machine (sorry) I will get the terms right) You absolutly feel like it doesn,t really matter about hiking your pants down infront of these female techs (descrete towel in place) because it doesn,t mean a hill of beans to them.There just trying to get your dots lined up for the treatment.
After the 5th or 7th time in your modesty goes away and the pants come down without being told. It s pure bussiness .Iam still shy about it.Anyway the female tech comes back after your finished getting zapped and you pull up your pants and your outs there. Very fast

Kentr
Posts: 111
Joined: May 2009

Muck Your post did make me laugh (not AT you but WITH you).

When I had my brachytherapy and woke up the nurse (young and VERY attractive) asked me if I had to urinate. I said, in a foggy state, there's no urine in my system given I haven't had anything to drink for about 24 hours. She said, "Well, I'll have to insert a catheter." I said, "Do what you have to do." 30 years ago I would have felt uncomfortable but at this stage who cares? :)

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califvader
Posts: 108
Joined: Aug 2010

i just finished IMRT in June. 36 treatments, 36 times pulling down the pants. for me the first couple of times were a little embarrassing, but when you think about it those techs see around 30 to 35 patients everyday. they are so used to it they could care less. sometimes i had male techs but most of the time they were female tech's. young ones to i might add. didn't bother me. hang in there buddy. make sure you use the aquaphor. i really does help. it will be over before you know it. filling the bladder up everyday bothered me the most.

Mark E
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan 2012

I can't believe you guys aren't willing to stand up for male dignity in medicine. Women have the guts to demand same gender care and are given much greater respect.  A man should have the same rights as a woman when it comes to modesty and respect. Since men typically don't have the guts to speak up they will continue to be disrespected and abused. 

Mark

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 1364
Joined: Apr 2009

Use a blindfold to cover your eyes during the procedure.

Trew
Posts: 892
Joined: Jan 2010

Now that is good.

After surgery, hormone therapy and radiation I seem to be about half the man I used to be. that part is embrassing, too. sort of like an Everly Brothers song, "Hello PC, Good-by...." well, doesn't quite fit. but the idea is there.

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 1364
Joined: Apr 2009

All of us...every single one of us has some sort of disability.....none of us are perfect....it's attitude....look at the donut, not the hole

With the way things are going on this thread, not only should we be blindfolded, but we also need to turn the lights off.

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Kongo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mar 2010

Disrespected and abused? Abused? Are you serious? Sounds like a bit too much drama here.

My primary concern when treating my cancer was to have the absolute best medical team available. The gender of the specialist (or staff) was never a priority nor should it be in my opinion. During my prostate cancer journey I have been examined by both male and female doctors and never have I been abused or shown disrespect. In fact, I can't recall any of those conditions whenever I have visited a doctor on any occasion PCa notwithstanding. And one thing I learned was that female doctors have smaller fingers which could be important to some during their DRE.

These attitudes are from the dark ages or, sadly, areas of the world today where an uneducated populace, religious, or cultural taboos stymie the delivery of quality medical care. Of all the things to worry about with this disease, this shouldn't even be in the discussion.

I agree with with Hopeful & Optimistic; if you are worried about it, wear a blindfold.

K

Swingshiftworker
Posts: 658
Joined: Mar 2010

Kongo: Sounds like a 1st post troll to me and it would be best to just ignore him if he posts again.

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 1598
Joined: Nov 2010

Kongo
Your avatar just convinced me that the Martini you drink is as good as my red wine. LOL
I love it and it fits.
VG

Kongo's picture
Kongo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mar 2010

Vasco,

Thanks. I have this little stuffed monkey that travels with me and lives in my roll-aboard suitcase. His name is Kongo. I used to put Kongo in different places and take pictures of him and send them to my granddaughtes and it evolved to where Kongo now has his own blog and twitter account! (Google: Kongo travel monkey and you can find him) Anyway, that's the background behind the moniker.

I've always wondered about your VascodaGama nickname. I get the Portugal part (my wife's family is from the Azores) but you are such a kind, gentle, and helpful person it always makes me wonder since the real Vasco da Gama was one of the most ruthless and brutal of all the early explorers, destroying native cultures and slaughtering the locals while acquiring great wealth for himself and Portugal. You seem the exact opposite.

Raising my glass back at you.

K

Mark E
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan 2012

Hey Guys,

I made my first post from a phone and it came off terse. I didn't mean to upset anyone.

Kongo – This thread is about IMRT not about doctors. When you are at this stage, everyone has selected the doctor they feel is the best for them. For IMRT therapy you most likely have a technician not a doctor and treatment was hopefully mapped out by your doctor.

So, since I want care not only for my medical procedure but also my dignity and emotional state, I selected my doctor based on that. Yes my doctor is a man. I also don't want to be surrounded by a sea of female nurses/technicians that don't respect my dignity either. I have to work with my doctor to have my dignity requests met but they were. I got world class care and was treated in a way I wanted.

Not everyone desires modesty in their treatment but many do. I didn't initially realize that I did until I had some unprofessional treatment that left me humiliated, embarrassed and violated in my discomfort with the procedure. It didn't have to be that way. So I request same gender care. If I have been in a car crash, yes survival comes first. For my level of cancer I am not in a such a rush that I don't take time to understand fully what will be done, how I will be covered and who will be there. If I don't like it, I tell them. If they can't or won't fix it, I go somewhere else. One poster said he had both male and female technicians, so it would have been easy to accommodate his desire for a male technician if he had wanted.

My point is, men don't ask for respectful treatment and so don't get it. Men should ask for what they want and they will get it. It has worked for women and it will work for men.

Mark

Kongo's picture
Kongo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mar 2010

Mark,

I hear and understand your point. I just don't agree with it. I also had radiation treatment (CyberKnife) and although my procedure did not require anything other than slipping on a pair of hospital trousers, during the many consultations I went through I met with many male and female physicians and male and female staff. A female held my hand during the biopsy and the last time I had a colonoscopy there were three females present.

I've never been in a situation where I was humiliated or treated with any disrespect. If that ever happened I wouldn't tolerate it and would be seeing patient advocates, hospital administrators, doctors, and whomever else in the chain of command that was responsible for the people involved. Most institutions have clearly posted and serious "patient rights" statements and many state laws require it. If a single incident occurred then I think you deal with the people involved and move on without painting too broad a brush across the entire female gender.

The women (both doctors, nurses, and staff) that I have had the pleasure to deal with during my journey have been the epitome of professionalism, decorum, and respect. I am sorry that you have had negative experiences.

I believe that a successful outcome requires that the patient and his medical team form a partnership with a common goal. When you indicate that you you dictate who can be present, how you will be covered, and so forth that you are setting the stage for an adversarial relationship instead of a partnership.

Of course, that's just my opinion. You're certainly entitled to yours. But I just feel that keeping a healthy sense of humor is important in life and general and with prostate cancer in particular. I believe that the medical staff I am dealing with is highly vested in the successful treatment of my cancer, not childishly hung up on body parts.

Sorry if I came on strong. I do welcome you to the forum and hope that you will share your story with us in how you discovered your cancer, how the diagnosis shaped your treatment decisions, and your progress in survivorship.

Best,

K

hopeful and opt...
Posts: 1364
Joined: Apr 2009

....so as I understand, when qualified medical personnel(especially if they if they have a different expertise than a doctor, for example; nurses and various techs) provide treatment and care, your dignity is insulted if the person is of a different sex. I wonder if there are also other restrictions that you place on personnel such as race, religion, sexual orientation, age, etc...this occurs and has occured in some societies.

.....that you are willing to make an exception if you are really sick, and "have no control, or would you complain afterward about not being respected.

Frankly Mark, we live in an enlightened society where we look for the best qualified regardless of demographic qualities.

Beau2
Posts: 246
Joined: Sep 2010

Hey Mark,

Welcome aboard, sorry about your need to be at a PCa forum.

When I had my last PSA check, I also had a DRE. Because I was early for the appointment, I was given the choice of seeing the doctor, who would be in later, or seeing the PA immediately. I chose the PA.

I had never seen the PA (a female) before. She was very professional and said that she had done many DREs and would do my DRE if I wanted; however, she also said she would understand if I wanted her to bring in a male to do the DRE. I thought this was very considerate ... and made me think the clinic put my interests first. I liked it.

Having said this, I guess I am also a Troll living in the past, because I expect a service provider to give me what I want. It makes business sense to offer what your customer wants ... in your case dignity. Certainly with the amount of PCa advertiseing I see the doctors want your money ... and they are very willing to ask for it. I can see no reason not to ask for dignity if that is what you want. If I don't like the service I'm getting I let them know (which apparently you did) and if they don't respond, I move on.

Thanks for starting a very interesting thread ..... best wishes as you move forward.

caseyh
Posts: 63
Joined: May 2002

Leaving our dignity at the door should not be a requirement or expectation of the institution treating our disease. It need not be that way, and in many treatment centers, it is not that way. I have completed two rounds of IMRT (39 TX ea.) and both times I was treated respectfully. There are certain procedures where it was difficult, if not impossible, to avoid some patient discomfort regardless of who administers the procedure. Patients often joke about these procedures in small groups while waiting for their daily treatments. Nobody is comfortable in these situations. This isn't about being enlightened or prejudicial, and its not about not being aware that treating the disease is our first priority. It is about treating each other respectfully, and that should be our expectation. Radiation centers that set high standards for their staff do a pretty good job at this, so it can be done.

hunter49
Posts: 204
Joined: Oct 2011

Right on Kongo. A little too much wining about nothing. I would not care if the doctor who treated me was a Martian as long as it/he/she gave me the best possible care.

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 1598
Joined: Nov 2010

Kongo

Thanks for the beautiful words.

I was surprised in knowing that apart of Yokosuka, we may have stepped on each other’s foot prints along our journeys. I have a similar “World Red-Flags Map”.
Some of the flags match and some relate to locations I’ve been that are in your list of priorities, and vice versa.
Three of those are from the impressive places I greatly admired in my globe-trotting “life”: The Silk Road’s Xian/Bishkek/Samarkand/Bukhara; Incas’ Nazca (Lines)/Cuzco/Machu-Picchu; and Mon Khmers’ Angkor Wat.

My nickname comes from my globe-trotting past and the willingness in helping other comrades of our PCa boat, when “navigating” along their journeys. I try to guide as an explorer when they grasp the wooden wheel.

My long stay in Asia took me to realize that balancing things are needed. The “Yin and Yang principle” (a central axis concept) and the “Qi”, the underlying principle in traditional Chinese medicine, are behind the choice in my avatar. The guitar represents the “Fado”, a compassionate Portuguese form of music and popular song, signifying destiny (now listed as an UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage). Azores people love it for sure.
The tunes and lyrics in Fado match well and imply mercifulness, balancing the act of a “ruthless explorer”. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l43763QTdEE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jApnqH-TWE&feature=related
http://paginas.fe.up.pt/~fado/eng/index-eng.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcurfK5yntA&feature=related

Wishing you health and continuous eventless outcomes.
I celebrate raising my glass with a good Portuguese red.

VG

Mark E
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan 2012

Once again, this thread is about about the sea of people men are exposed to at the hospital but not about the doctor they have selected. This is the technicians, nurses, cna, etc. that you typically have no choice in. It is about the modesty most men have and how the medical system does not consider it. It is about the choice of the gender of those who support our doctors during intimate procedures but it is also about the concern about our dignity. Are your genitals left exposed even though they are not involved in the procedure, it's not hard to cover a man. Is there an unnecessary group of people watching the procedure? Have you been introduced to all of these people and told why they are there?

Kongo – You got to wear trousers? If I understand, the worst humiliation you had was a colonoscopy, a biopsy and several digital rectal exams?

Kongo - I did write to and had a meeting with the hospital CEO, chief executive nurse, head of radiation oncology, patient advocate and a radiation oncology doctor. During my discussion I was told that when a woman is treated, her modesty is at the front of their minds. When a man is treated, his modesty is at the back of their minds if they consider it at all. Both get the same level of treatment but considerations are different. I am not sure why this is but I know it doesn't change because men do not speak up. If no one is complaining then full speed ahead.

Kongo – You wrote, paraphrased, that there needs to be a partnership between the patient and the medical team and my demanding of what is important to me hurts the success of the team. If you have a partnership, each partner has a say. If you won't speak up for what matters to you then its not a partnership. If you won't speak up, how can there be success but what the doctor deems is success.

Beau2 – You are not a Troll because you expect to have your provider care for you needs, both physical and mental. I think you would be a Troll if you didn't care or tried to make others believe their feelings were wrong.

I have an 18yr old daughter that was recently in a serious car crash and was in the hospital for 5 days. During the initial days she was not able to leave her bed. There were 20-35 year old male nurses on the floor and luckily no body thought her best possible care would include personal care from these men. Do you guys think we risked her level of care by not including them in her personal care? I hope not! Well the same thing is true for men. I am not risking my life by wanting respect for my modesty.

I am surprised the regulars on this forum are trying to deny my thoughts of male dignity in medicine by name calling, implications of bigotry and accusations of being uneducated. I am done with my treatment but my heart goes out to men when I know what they are in for. In addition many men, estimated to be as high as 50%, don't seek treatment. It is speculated that many of them are avoiding the humiliation of men in a female controlled system. Is this good? No of course not. The life span difference between men and women is increasing and lack of heath care is a big part of that.

It will change if men will just demand it. Does your wife go to a male mamographer? Most likely not because most women demand same gender care. Those men who care need to speak up for those who come after us!

Mark

VascodaGama's picture
VascodaGama
Posts: 1598
Joined: Nov 2010

Mark
I believe that male dignity is kept by each one when confronted with a similar situation as that of Muckdown.
You can request to be attended as you like and such “dignity” would only be confronted if the request wasn’t attended. As many in this forum I have pulled down the pants many times. My dignity was never confronted and I never felt it to be infringed.

I recall the morning of the day after surgery when a young female nurse come to my room and bathed me all over including my penis and testis in front of my wife. She did it naturally unnoticed (probably bathing many patients before me and thereafter) but it was acceptable to me even if the action seem awkward to me.
I believe that those professionals treat your nudity simply as “another corpus” but they care if you feel pain or if their way of doing things is bothering you. They try to get to the purpose of what is needed not of what they can see.
Surely not all of them give the same “value” to “male dignity” but infringement may be assumed rare.

Look into my comment to Muckdown in this link; http://csn.cancer.org/node/226238#comment-1122245

I am infringing his male dignity and I am not a nurse caring for him.

You can follow the links in this article which deals the case from the nurses side point of view.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21207825

The Best.
VGama

Mark E
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan 2012

VGama - I am glad that you didn't have to check your dignity at the door. Unfortunately you don't speak for all men. I know I find it up setting and, if your willing to listen, you will hear many other men expressing the same feeling of disregard.

You talk about how the nurse feels. For me it's not about her, it about how I feel.

If you want a different point of view on nurses, read the allnurses.com blog where over 500,000 nurses blog. Many have professional comments. Others talk about such things as "Nine things nurses don’t want you to know." The number one item is, "Yeah, we look..." The site seems to have tighten log-on requirements so you can look at http://patientprivacyreview.blogspot.com/2011/12/nursing-violations-of-patient-privacy.html

I don't see why people are arguing against men who have dignity concerns wanting choices? Why shouldn't we be allowed to have the same options women are given? Someone answer that instead of telling me my feelings are wrong.

Mark

prezmic
Posts: 36
Joined: Jul 2011

I have a long history of dropping troussers and have never felt uncomfortable. My experiences with IMRT were very professional from the female techs.

I routinely dropped my pants to the ankle before lying down on the table. The cover was sufficient for the techs to do their job and for my modesty. Getting up from the table involved waiting for them to lower it for me to get up, then having to bend over to retrieve my pants. If anyone was looking, I didn't notice or care.

One day the table's automatic adjustment was faulty. After several attempts to fix it, I found myself lying there with about 6 additional people in the room. One of the techs placed a sheet over me immediately. I was able to slide off the table while they repaired it.

Half way through my treatments, I had my first male tech. He suggested that I only drop my pants to the thighs. This gave me the opportunity to pull my pants back up while still lying down, before the techs returned to the room to lower me.

I appreciated the advice, which was a timesaver. It also would help anyone who is more modest than I.

Why the male tech gave me the suggestion and not the females? One could argue that the male was more considerate for my modesty. Or he didn't like the view. (lol)

Kongo's picture
Kongo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mar 2010

It's not that many of us are telling you that you are wrong (wrong-headed maybe) its that we see this as a trivial diversion from why we are here which is to learn about prostate cancer and support fellow sufferers.

Dignity is something only you can give away. Nobody can take it from you unless you are a willing accomplice. Others may show you respect or not but you have absolute control over your own dignity.

Are you really concerned about losing your dignity because of a blog where some nurses might say yeah, they look at you? Good grief. This goes back to the whole education and maturity thing. You missed something along the way.

What if your male doctor or nurse was gay? Do you worry about them "checking you out?". Are you going to start sexuality checks in addition to interrogating your medical team about how they are going to cover you up? It doesn't sound as if you ever served in the military. You lose your false or misplaced modesty very quickly, but you never lose your dignity.

Mark E
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan 2012

Kongo – No I didn’t serve in the military. I am way too young for Vietnam and way too old for the current conflicts. ;-)

Thank-you and thanks to the other men on this forum who have served and sacrificed for our great country!

Mark

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