to all those who do not believe in the Lord or the Word.
1) SHOW me PROOF our Lord does not exist.
Show me proof he does. It goes both ways.
he does exists is within the FAITH we each hold in his glory as well as his WORD which is the Bible, so by your statement above, you are saying all Books on his WORD are false and that we all were created from Apes and the "bing bang" created our World?
Science will always fall on their sword of having to touch, smell, see, taste, etc., their resolutions to the world we live in; if you can't see it, smell it, taste it, etc., it ain't real and doesn't exist.
The Bible CAN BE traced and linked to BC and AC times as well as research today, so you can believe what YOU want to believe, but I will NOT under any circumstance CHANGE my way of life or beliefs to allievate all those who mutter "since I am not a believer, why should I have to read it, see it or have it on my money?"
Why, because it is what OUR COUNTRY was founded on, or are you going to say that's not real either?
I don't pressure congress or the senate, school systems, etc., to change what has been part of this COUNTRY for centuries because I don't believe. I move on and emjoy life.
Oh, I know, I could pressure congress, senate, the President and all legal authorities to FORCE all those who don't believe into believing, cause I'm tired of listening to "your" group complain, but of course, since I believe in the LORD I don't stup to such idot tactics.
To use your own words, your the idiot - I do not live in America and my country was not founded on this bollox!
And by the way nudgie. neither was yours! I forgot to say this earlier.
Seems to me that you have inferred a whole lot in your response to dasspears simple question. Why are you so angry? Why would you respond with such vehemence and hatred? Your original post, IMO, sort of sounds like "Can you prove there is no Easter Bunny, Santa Claus?" or what have you. Perhaps you would like to calm down and post something not quite so offensive. I have ALOT of respect for believers, non-believers and people like myself who are unsure. Comments such as yours are what tend to turn me away from religion. It really is rather frightening.
(Allman Brothers reference)
My initial inclination was to ignore your buffoonery, a clear attempt, by my estimation, to cause some sort of firestorm of idiocy in a board where people are generally reasonable with one another. It was additionally clear, by your own statements, that no matter what anyone might say, you are holding firm in your beliefs and are not even trying to convert any of those from some dreaded 'group'.
I thought to myself, what motivation can there be, then, other than to cause the aforesaid firestorm of idiocy? He or she seeks no debate, only wants to expound on what he or she states as proof of his/her belief.
Then I noticed how many posts you have made, and then I noticed that you are a member of what is now, sadly, the rather infamous colon board, infamous for the number and intensity of some of the religion-based discussions that rise up within.
So, for the last time, I am going to try to take this on, in this case, one line at a time.
1. Proof and Faith are contradictory. Your later debunking of science even suggests you know that proof requires some sort of scientific testing, although you falll short in your apparent knowledge of what that testing might consist of. From Wikipedia:
Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing. The English word is thought to date from 1200–50, from the Latin fidem or fidēs, meaning trust, derived from the verb fīdere, to trust.
The term is employed in a religious or theological context to refer to a confident belief in a transcendent reality, a religious teacher, a set of teachings or a Supreme Being. However, atheists and agnostics consider the term to be a euphemism for religious superstition.
Since faith implies a trusting reliance upon future events or outcomes, it is often taken by some people as inevitably synonymous with a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence." Thus, faith disqualifies reasoning in favor of "transcendent reality".
Faith is in general: the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true, belief in and assent to the truth of what is declared by another, based on his or her supposed authority and truthfulness. Informal usage can be quite broad, and the word is often used as a mere substitute for trust or belief'.
Nowhere in this definition or in any others I found did I notice the word 'proof'. Faith and proof, again, are contradictory. I am not saying that faith is not real and I am not saying that faith does not have merit: there is much in the cosmos that we do not know and I am certain there is a place for faith. But it is not proof, so right out of the gate your argument leaks some gaping holes.
2. And then, of course, you disdain science as something that relies only upon the five senses. This is incorrect, as any mathematician or physicist worth his diploma could tell you. Rather than getting into that, I direct you to your own description of your treatment, which I quote herein:
My surgeon and cancer doctor determined that it would be wise to have the FOLFOX chemotherapy treatment every two weeks over 6 months. My treatment started on 18 August 06.
26 Sept 06 Update: I have had 3 FLOFOX treatments so far and are doing well. Minimal side effects. My 4th is scheduled for 29 Sept. I am keeping a SHARP VISUAL on my blood counts.
4 Oct 06 Update: Could not have my 4th chemo treatment as scheduled for 29 Sept due to low (.7) Neutrophil (WBC)counts. Doctor rescheduled for Friday, 6 October, but now having issues with breathing. Had a CT Scan on 28 Sept 06 which showed signs of smoker's lung, but confused because I NEVER had breathing issues until I started chemo. Have an appt and lung test with Lung Doc on Thursday, 5 October.
13 Nov 06: Due to side effects, I have had my FLOFOX regime reduced by 20% across the board, so 5FU went from 3800 to 3000 and the Oxy went from 85% to 65%. Have had 2 reduced treatments, 20 October & 3 November. On 3 November, I had an allergic reaction, hives, so the treatment was stopped and restarted in the evening. I stayed in the hospital and Oxy injection went from 2-hour drip to a 4-hour drip. Had no issues with this, but it's funny, I still get the tingling in hands and feet even with the reduced dosage. I am considering stopping my treatements due to side effects and not able to tolerate the WBC booster shots, so I am assuming if I continue that my every other week treatment would turn into a 3/4 week treatment and don't know if it would carry the same effectiveness.
17 Nov 06: Decided to stop chemotherapy after 6 treatments due to the side effects mentioned above. CBC counts did come back in the normal ranges. Will set-up Onc Dr appt to discuss next steps:
18 Jan 07: Had Onc. Doc appt to discuss next steps. Every 3 months for first year will be CT Scan and blood work. Had my very first ever colonoscopy on 12 Jan 07. According to surgeon all was normal. Need to set-up first CT Scan before reverse surgery of colonostomy.
14 Oct 09: I have had clear scans and good bloodwork results since 30 Jan 07
26 Jan 10: I continue to receive CT scans & bloodwork twice yearly as well as a colonscopy every year or two years.
Nowhere herein do you speak of god, but you sure do speak a lot about science, something you evidently had at least a modicum of faith in when you needed it.
3. Putting words into someone's mouth as you do when speaking of the word is patently false. All dasspears is noting is that you have no proof of your god's existence. You may have faith, but you do not have proof. And if you want to rely on the books as proof, you need to garner a much better understanding of how they were created, where they were created, by whom they were created, and why they were created.
4. A better understanding of evolution and the Big Bang theory (not the Sopranos-like bing-bang theory) would help you quite a bit. Nowhere that I know of in the study of evolution does it say that we were created from apes. Evolution is an excruciatingly slow process of adaptation and survival involving the growth of many smaller limbs from a larger one, generally, with many or most of those smaller branches dying off because of unsuitably, while one or more thrive in an existing or changing environment. An ape did not simply stand up one day and start using an IPod.
5. Suggesting that because the Bible can be traced to both BC and AC times makes it (them, actually) legitimate is ludicrous. To begin with, the delineation between BC and AC times presumes the importance of Jesus' times, a rather circular sort of logic. And the oldest known literature in the world comes from either Egypt of China. Does that make them more reliable than the two books of the bible?
6. Your true colors begin to come out when you refer to those who 'mutter...'. Exactly who is muttering? Exactly who is not reading? It strikes me, based on what you have written, that you are the one who is muttering, that you are the one who has not been diligent in your reading.
7. Your statement about what our country was founded on is frankly incoherent, and even if I attempt to tie it in with the above comment regarding what is on our money, I must alert you that our country was founded on a great few principles and nary a one of them specified what would be on our money, as if I would care anyway. A couple that you might want to consider to some greater degree (since you believe in keeping up with your reading) are the ones having to do with the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion.
8. Despite your implicit contention that this country has remained entrenched firmly in some centuries-old system unchanged, there have been any number of amendments to the Constitution (beginning with the Bill of Rights that you might want to read), some of them granting rights, some of them taking away rights. Our nation, our government, they evolve (else they perish, I would advise).
9. You could TRY to force the various institutions of government and law enforcement to do as you bid, but you would almost certainly fail, at least in the singular that is you. That is, you CANNOT force the government to do your bidding, despite whatever grandiose illusions you have.
10. "Your group" is an interesting phrase. What group, exactly, would that be? You can't be referring to Judaism or Islam, since they share the Old Testament with you and revere Abraham and others just as you do (or should, if you do, indeed, read this bible you so loudly proclaim to be the answer to everything). Is it the Bhuddists or the Hindus whose religions certainly pre-date your own Christian one? Is it the paganists, from whom christianity borrowed in order to appease and lure populations into the fold by changing and adapting rituals to fit their own customs of celebrating the solstices, for example? Is it the pantheists, such as the native americans, the mayans, the aztecs, any number of peoples throughout the world, often subjugated by your religion when your religion has been afforded the opportunity to do so? Is it the various religious entities from your so-called BC and AC times whose practices and beliefs were incorporated into both of your books?
Maybe you are referring only to the agnostics and the atheists, two 'groups' at odds with each other to some small degree but willing to co-exist in relative harmony and even debate the interesting philosophical issues involved? Maybe this is the group, the one bound by religion, by science, to seek proof?
11. With respect to such tactics, 'stup' = stoop; 'idut' = idiot.
I could rant for hours on your post and pick it apart bit by bit but to what end? You will write back and we could debate for eons....you will not change your mind and I will not change mine. You have been accused of being angry and I believe that anger comes from your passion based on your beliefs and system of faith...kudos to you. At the same time I am as passionate about my lack of belief as you. Just because a book exists for centuries, as many have, doesn't make it magical.
As for your claim that the US was founded on religion, it was NOT!
"Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
This means it was founded on the principle that we are free to practice or not practice and nothing more. AND...this is only part of what the country was founded on. In large part this country was founded on freedom of tyranny the kind of which you are basically proposing. The kind of tyranny which forces a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force, in this case the proposition to believe in a God. Therefore your argument is moot!
As a scientist, I will always fall on the side of proof. As a human I will always follow my sense of logic and gut feelings and in this case, I choose not to believe but you do as you wish because this is your right as a citizen of this country but what you don't have the right to do is force your beliefs on others, think about it.
both soccs and pstur - if i could have bothered with an eloquent reply lol. I just tend to get exasperated sometimes!
Nudgie: Your ignorance of the history of your books and your country is amazing. I have to wonder if you were home schooled, I shudder to think your knowledge came from our public schools
Dasspears: Your response is the correct one, you cannot prove a negative, therefore the burden of proof is on the believer
Joe: Wonderful response.
Tricia: Ha! Very funny response! (think OP will figure out what bollox means?)
Both of Nudgie's posts are so bad that they are good, this is why people still watch Plan 9 From Outer Space.
Nudgie why so confrontational, I don't get it? Since you speak of the Bible and use the phrase "our Lord" I would think you are of the Christian faith which is the same faith that I am. If this is the case why would you want to assault non-believers with your rather brash posting? Our faith tells us to be kind, gentle and understanding of those who do not share our beliefs, that we should watch how we represent ourselves in our daily walk so as not to cause our brother (fellow man) to stumble. This type of post to me seems a kin to tossing your brother over the cliff rather than sharing the good word with them. Part of the beauty of our faith is in the fact that as stated in the bible in the book of Corinthians "we walk by faith, not by sight." God calls us to know him in our heart and in doing so we are called to lead others to know him as well, not to assault them and put the burden of proof upon them. They cannot prove God exists any easier than you can and that is exactly as God designed it. We are to believe with our hearts not with our mind which is why it is so difficult for many. So I ask you to please be kind and know that using such harsh one liners as you did here is not a good representation our faith and the goodness shown to the world when Jesus walked here. Had Jesus been confrontational rather that caring I doubt we would even be having this conversation. I truly wish you well and a bit of enlightenment.
To those who are un-knowers and non-believers I hope you realize that many of us who are people of faith do not wish to attack you, we care deeply for you as you are just as valuable as we are, I am no better than you!
I enjoyed your post. You, ma'am, come across as a walker as well as a talker! I know you don't wish to attack and in kind, neither do I. I respect your right to believe and follow and I will defend it to the end. But...thank you for the acknowledgement. Be well.
Well said, RE!
Take care, my friend,
I guess I am one of the non-believers. I cannot comprehend a Being who is supposed to be loving and caring of his followers to allow so much pain, destruction and devastation. I do realize that a lot of human suffering is brought on by ourselves, but what about the ones that have never done anything to deserve such misery. Or the ones who have changed their ways and repented their sins. I was raised in the Christian faith, but my faith has been shattered so many times that it will never recover. I envy those who have been able to retain their faith and belief in the face of all adversity.
As far as I can tell, the thieves and drug lords seem to be doing a lot better than those of us who worked hard making an honest living or so many suffering people here. I wonder if their faith is of higher caliber or stronger than mine was.
I am not making fun of your faith or belief and I have no animosity at all toward people of faith. As I gradually lose, most importantly, loved ones and of second importance, everything I have worked my whole life for, I have no more faith.
I too was surprised to see Nudgie's vehemence in her post. Perhaps she was confronted by someone without provocation. I wish her well.
Thank You Again,
I mean "Right On"!
Huh? And that is your proof? very confusing posting!
When I first clicked on your post I really had to check the date. I thought it might have been an April Fool's joke!
In your next post you state, "I don't pressure congress or the senate, school systems, etc., to change what has been part of this COUNTRY for centuries because I don't believe. I move on and emjoy life".
Then why, on God's green earth, would you come on this forum and post such a combative blog? I am a Believer and as such, I am not angry with your words. I have prayed that you find some peace and are able to care for and respect others for their differences. I believe that God does not make mistakes, therefore, all of Mankind, whether they believe or not, are good.
You are blessed to be a cancer survivor, and I praise our Lord for His love and mercy that He has bestowed upon you.
Now abideth faith, hope and love...
but the greatest of these is love
I Corinthians 13:13
Peace be with you,
Thank you for yet another respectful, thoughtful response, Lucy.
Thanks Lucy, couldn't have said it better myself. I try not to judge those who don't believe as I do but am saddened by those indeed who are so filled with anger - it's so destructive and never produces any positive results.
Anger I know is part of the whole healing proccess and you have to go through it to some extent but when a person gets stuck in anger the process is halted til the person can move on. I totally believe that.
Anywho, all the best to all who posted on this point. May Peace find you.
I agree 150% with your response Lucy and as usual it's respectful and thoughtful.
Nudgie, you might want to re-read the Bible, especially the parts that refer to not being judgemental. Just an idea.
Praying you find peace,love and understanding Nudgie.
Just popped in here, as I'm from the infamous board lol. Saw you had posted, how are you?
Really hope you are well.
Okay, let me start by saying support the belief that anyone chooses, I have friends of many religions. Lets start there the Bible is a book therefore it is the interpretation of the reader to define the words and come to a conclusion on what it ment. Hence one book different religions. Let me show u how its done _for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son _ I can honestly say I have never meet a parent who would put there child in harms way. So when I read that verse I think what kind of jackass would send his kid to get murdered, just so he can tell people about his dads awesome powers. I wonder if that's how they got the phrase "looks like someone has a GOD COMPLEX" . Let's move onto some of the commandments _don't cheat, steal, or kill. _ makes scince, I agree, those are pretty bad things. But hey if ur making up a whole book and listing ten rules not to break and then u add _don't use my name in vain _ as one of the top ten. Wow this God fellow really is worried about his image. I could go on but, your God told me to have mercy. Oh FYI not every one who doesn't believe in God belives. In apes and science crap. One more thing then I Swear I'm done you said all u athiest only believe in things u can see. Well u would be happy to know I do believe in a higher power, and I've never seen it or touched it but I can prove it. Go grab a butter knife and stick it in a light socket. I promise it will be a shocking experience for you as a higher power jolts outta know where and knocks u down. So there u go a higher power than myself that I know is real. (P.s. I was jokeing don't do that) that's all for now have fun praying for me or don't because u don't like me, but that would be judging me.
I have gotten's everyone's attention, why is religion such a hard subject to talk about? Why is it so hard for people to believe in the LORD? I was raised on faith, went to church and still believe today that GOD does exist whether I can see him or touch him.
I had stopped going to chuch around my young adult life, but stilled believed. Was DX in 2006 with Stage II Colon Cancer. Went for my first chemo treatment and was put in a room with another couple, a little older then myself, but very nice.
Each treatment thereafter, I was put in the same room with same couple, so we began to become friends. During this time, they mentioned their church, so I mentioned I was looking to start back (because of my DX), so I went to theirs.
As soon as I walked in, I could feel and sense the closeness and caring from everyone, and then the tears started as soon as I began to sing the first song and the tears did not stop until months later. Couldn't explain it and didn't want to.
I theory is that FAITH brought me to this couple; GOD made sure I was housed with them during chemo treatments for the support and guidance I needed, but she lost her battle in 2007. I still attend that church.
I have been part of the Colon Cancer Discussion Board since 2006 and have seen and read the "prayers, GOD and Faith" postings have done there and was saddended by the turmol it caused.
Everyone on this earth has the right to believe in whatever they wish, but should not the right to force people to change their beliefs because of theirs. This is what is happening today.
Prayer is out of schools, speakings of removing "in God we Trust" from our Court houses and monies, why, because those whose beliefs are different are forcing our governements to change to "their" beliefs. That is what makes me angry.
So let me re-phase. I believe in GOD, but if you don't, that's your choice, but I will not force you or make you change your beliefs unless you want too.
Our Country was founded on so many differences, relgions, cultures, etc., why should our Country be forced into just one?
We are created the same eyes, nose, mouth, arms, legs, heart and soul. It's a same "WE" have created such turmol among ourselves.
"So let me re-phase. I believe in GOD, but if you don't, that's your choice, but I will not force you or make you change your beliefs unless you want too."
"to all those who do not believe in the Lord or the Word.
1) SHOW me PROOF our Lord does not exist."
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, I will have to but it's mostly a lose-lose situation. I'm glad you believe Nudgie, I'm glad those who are Muslims believe, I'm glad those who are Jews believe, I'm glad that those who are Buddhists believe.
The country was NOT founded on "Christian Beliefs" as commonly misstated. Quite the contrary.
Look it up, it's true. Just because people say it all the time does not make it true.
If we are to say "Everyone on this earth has the right to believe in whatever they wish, but should not the right to force people to change their beliefs because of theirs." but then in the next paragraph "Prayer is out of schools, speakings of removing "in God we Trust" from our Court houses and monies, why, because those whose beliefs are different are forcing our governements to change to "their" beliefs. That is what makes me angry.".
Just how do we decide WHICH God to believe in??? Let's put "In Allah We Trust"* in our courts and on our money. Don't we have the right to NOT believe or to say I don't know if there is a God?
And what I find to be the "kicker" in all of this is that the 3 big religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) all have the SAME GOD, the God of Abraham. That's a hoot in my opinion. Everyone's been killing each other since someone decided to create religion and yet they all fight over the same "Guy in the Sky".
*I am not picking on Muslims, for what has become all too common they seem to be the group that is not the most popular in America at this time. It's been the Catholics and the Jews too (and still is).
"Our Country was founded on so many differences, relgions, cultures, etc., why should our Country be forced into just one?"
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
So, take God off our money, out of our pledge, out of our Congress and away from all of our publicly funded institutions. Then we can just let people decide for themselves.
sounds like you have an axe to grind that you need to grind elsewhere. This is a very supportive board where people DO DISCUSS THEIR BELIEFS whether or not it be a belief in God. They challenge each other in a way that helps the person dig deeper within and also share on deeper level. This I appreciate greatly!! It is often uplifting to come this board and read about other people's insights, experiences and beliefs.
NO-ONE IS FORCING YOU TO CHANGE YOUR BELIEF!! Whether or not there is prayer and religion in school should have no impact on your beliefs because, in case you haven't noticed belief is personal and comes from within. Even if you are not allowed to openly practice your religion you can still believe and no-one can take that away from you.
I am not Christian, I have no problem with Christianity and certainly have the utmost respect for the word of Jesus however if there is going to be Christianity in schools, then there also needs to be Budhism, Islam, Hindu, Animism ....along with the long list of other belief systems in the world in schools.
There are many intelligent, thoughtful and reflective people on this board you could learn a great deal by truly reading their posts, starting with the responses on this thread.
There are so many great responses here to the initial question that was posted. As Mariam stated, people do discuss their beliefs on here. We do it all the time and 95% of the time it's done with civility and acceptance. We all do not agree with each other all the time and that's OK. Faith is just that, it shouldn't be confused with facts. That's not to say it's wrong but it's to say that it is really hard (if not impossible) to prove.
I'd like to know why so much has been said in response to words so transparently a contrivance, and as such, purely manipulative.
It's very easy to avoid such contrivance. Just don't respond.
Then it wouldn't be any fun :)
you make me giggle:)
Just sayin' HE loves U all!
I agree with that
But I still never got my pony :)
.... it's about what we NEED. I am a believer and I think that there is alot of common sense in the belief that there is a grand plan, that isn't orchestrated by us humans, and that if you getting a pony would have moved you along towards your souls fullfillment, or would have helped you in any other way that was needed, then you would have gotten your pony.
At least it makes the most sense of any arguement I have ever heard for why some get what they want or not.
All the best Stayingcalm.
Somewhere here I'm sure I've also said I don't believe in Santa Claus, or fairies & elves, aliens or UFO's, Yetis, advanced ancient civilizations, Atlantis etc :) But oddly enough the videogames I play often star those very things...doesn't mean I take it seriously!
I have no idea who is jesting or being sarcastic sometimes in posts so excuse me if I read you wrong. It's common to take insinuations and jest and sarcasim wrong in written text and chat.
I am glad we live in a country where we are all free to believe in something or not to believe. To me it is a matter of choice and a choice that I don’t force on anyone. I think the world would be a better place if all people could learn to respect each other and what they believe or not believe. I believe that there is a God who looks over me and that is my choice and I respect someone else who does not believe that way.
The proof of God is in the way you live not forcing it on others.
I agree with U Hondo..
(Lee Greenwood reference)
Perhaps it is just a matter of semantics, but I would advise that faith is not about 'choice'. Theologians, philosophers, priests, preachers, rabbis, swamis, shamans, in whatever dialect they use, they generally refer to a LEAP of faith, that is, jumping from the rational to the irrational, accepting something beyond that which can be proven scientifically. They do not, among those I have talked to over the years, (and there have been many, of many faiths), imply that I could CHOOSE to make that leap. Not, that is, and remain honest to myself. No, rather, they seem to understand that it is a most wonderful or tragic element of the human condition, and that we can only come to it, to faith, through this so-called leap. We cannot simply wake up one morning and decide that we have chosen to believe.
That would be a lie.
Perhaps it is just a matter of semantics.