Great op-ed in the NYT today
Comments
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I'm thinking
Bill, I kind of think that we enjoy the idea of fighting this disease. I know, probably, factually the article is true, or why else do those we know that have the will and have fought valiantly against this insidious cancer succumb?
But, I think we need to feel that ideally, our will to live can help us overcome it nonetheless. I know, it's a mental thing not a reality. But we allow it to be a mental and "our" reality that we have the "strength" to fight it for our own peace of mind. I think it's our strength that carries as far as we can go, that the end indeed comes too soon for many of us, that no matter how hard we fight it, "the bell still tolls", I think it's our human factor that no matter the reality, we must give it our best fight, we must hang on as long as we can physically and mentally bear it, for ourselves, for our loved ones. It's in our DNA darn it!!!
I enjoyed the article, I'm sure there's indeed much truth in it, but darn it, the inner me doesn't want to believe it.
Love at ya,
Winter Marie0 -
Winter Marie,herdizziness said:I'm thinking
Bill, I kind of think that we enjoy the idea of fighting this disease. I know, probably, factually the article is true, or why else do those we know that have the will and have fought valiantly against this insidious cancer succumb?
But, I think we need to feel that ideally, our will to live can help us overcome it nonetheless. I know, it's a mental thing not a reality. But we allow it to be a mental and "our" reality that we have the "strength" to fight it for our own peace of mind. I think it's our strength that carries as far as we can go, that the end indeed comes too soon for many of us, that no matter how hard we fight it, "the bell still tolls", I think it's our human factor that no matter the reality, we must give it our best fight, we must hang on as long as we can physically and mentally bear it, for ourselves, for our loved ones. It's in our DNA darn it!!!
I enjoyed the article, I'm sure there's indeed much truth in it, but darn it, the inner me doesn't want to believe it.
Love at ya,
Winter Marie
I agree with
Winter Marie,
I agree with you 100%, I just liked the part which discusses how some people still feel that patients who do badly do so because they have a bad attitude or didn't fight hard enough, didn't accept Jesus, etc. Most of the time it is just bad luck that their cancer had a certain mutation driving its growth, etc. I certainly believe that attitude is important, just sometimes will never be enough.
Big hug,
Bill0 -
Here hereTrapbear said:Winter Marie,
I agree with
Winter Marie,
I agree with you 100%, I just liked the part which discusses how some people still feel that patients who do badly do so because they have a bad attitude or didn't fight hard enough, didn't accept Jesus, etc. Most of the time it is just bad luck that their cancer had a certain mutation driving its growth, etc. I certainly believe that attitude is important, just sometimes will never be enough.
Big hug,
Bill
Perfect Bill, you said it perfect.
Winter Marie0 -
Sloan is full of it.
From the article: "But there’s no evidence to back up the idea that an upbeat attitude can prevent any illness or help someone recover from one more readily."
What's the problem with this? It's obviously false. Why do placebos work? Because if people believe they're getting a curative treatment, even if that's not true, they are more likely to get well. Why do medical researchers do double-blind experiments? To eliminate the influence of an upbeat (or downbeat) attitude. Perhaps Mr. Sloan slept through the last half of the 20th century.
--Greg0 -
Wow, lots of angerPGLGreg said:Sloan is full of it.
From the article: "But there’s no evidence to back up the idea that an upbeat attitude can prevent any illness or help someone recover from one more readily."
What's the problem with this? It's obviously false. Why do placebos work? Because if people believe they're getting a curative treatment, even if that's not true, they are more likely to get well. Why do medical researchers do double-blind experiments? To eliminate the influence of an upbeat (or downbeat) attitude. Perhaps Mr. Sloan slept through the last half of the 20th century.
--Greg
The placebo effect is real, but does not actually cure anything.
We had a few losses today, would you accuse them of not believing rightly enough, or hard enough? Would you make their death some fault of their own?
The point of the article is that. It is in the closing paragraph.
Personally, I hope all of us maintain a good attitude, I hope we can all find some reason to smile each day and some reason to get out of bed each morning.
I hope we do not allow ourselves to become angry and bitter, and should we lose our way, i hope we do not take those negative feelings out on those who love and care for us.
I hope this for us because each day is precious, and we can waste them in depression and worry.
So, live, be happy, take what comes at you with a sense of humor. Understand the odds, but don't let them freeze you up.
And should you feel like yelling at the clouds, call me, I would be happy to join you.0 -
That is a shameTrapbear said:Winter Marie,
I agree with
Winter Marie,
I agree with you 100%, I just liked the part which discusses how some people still feel that patients who do badly do so because they have a bad attitude or didn't fight hard enough, didn't accept Jesus, etc. Most of the time it is just bad luck that their cancer had a certain mutation driving its growth, etc. I certainly believe that attitude is important, just sometimes will never be enough.
Big hug,
Bill
when people are lead to believe that they didn't try hard enough. A lot of getting through this is luck in my opinion. That, and a very good medical team and also how you approach the cancer. Surgery first? Chemo first?
Also, just as it is in life, attitude is everything. It may not save your life but it can let you enjoy your life while you have it.
I think we have to remember too that this was in the Op/Ed section of the paper. This is this guy's opinion. And remember, Opinions are like a-holes. Everyone's got.....oppps, not the best analogy I guess.
;-)0 -
Nothing NewBuckwirth said:Wow, lots of anger
The placebo effect is real, but does not actually cure anything.
We had a few losses today, would you accuse them of not believing rightly enough, or hard enough? Would you make their death some fault of their own?
The point of the article is that. It is in the closing paragraph.
Personally, I hope all of us maintain a good attitude, I hope we can all find some reason to smile each day and some reason to get out of bed each morning.
I hope we do not allow ourselves to become angry and bitter, and should we lose our way, i hope we do not take those negative feelings out on those who love and care for us.
I hope this for us because each day is precious, and we can waste them in depression and worry.
So, live, be happy, take what comes at you with a sense of humor. Understand the odds, but don't let them freeze you up.
And should you feel like yelling at the clouds, call me, I would be happy to join you.
I think that we have to keep this in context. It's on the Opinion section of a newspaper.
However, I don't think anyone's ever been hurt by having a good attitude.0 -
and one more thing Phil........PhillieG said:Nothing New
I think that we have to keep this in context. It's on the Opinion section of a newspaper.
However, I don't think anyone's ever been hurt by having a good attitude.
that wasn't a bad analogy you were fixing to use...we all got em, some of us just got em in different places...and they stink just as bad
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And this was my point:PhillieG said:link
It's rough getting things to show up on here at times!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/opinion/25sloan.html?adxnnl=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1296230482-s52smdk9t3xv0ia75enfrg&pagewanted=print
"It is difficult enough to be injured or gravely ill. To add to this the burden of guilt over a supposed failure to have the right attitude toward one’s illness is unconscionable. Linking health to personal virtue and vice not only is bad science, it’s bad medicine."
I don't attribute this attitude to anyone on this board, but it is out there, and whether it is a well meaning friend, a vile relative, or just some stranger spouting in a grocery store, it is out there, and it is just as cruel as the author implies.0 -
Morality and nature.Buckwirth said:And this was my point:
"It is difficult enough to be injured or gravely ill. To add to this the burden of guilt over a supposed failure to have the right attitude toward one’s illness is unconscionable. Linking health to personal virtue and vice not only is bad science, it’s bad medicine."
I don't attribute this attitude to anyone on this board, but it is out there, and whether it is a well meaning friend, a vile relative, or just some stranger spouting in a grocery store, it is out there, and it is just as cruel as the author implies.
Whether a good attitude helps you get well is a factual matter -- a natural fact if true, but not a moral fact. Perhaps you could show it to be false by carefully designed experiments, but you can't show it to be false by arguing that nature would be cruel, if it were true, or by demonstrating that I am mean for pointing it out. You may not approve, but the world doesn't seek your approval -- it is what it is.
--Greg0 -
Interesting
When my sister was dying of intestinal cancer, a "friend" wrote me a letter telling me that my sister was dying because there was sin in her life for which she hadn't repented. Can you believe it?
My sister was the epitome of positive attitude--for the public eye. If you talked to her on the phone you'd never know she was sick. But because she (and others perhaps) put such pressure to always be positive, she never allowed herself to work through the reality that she was dying so she just stuffed those emotions down deep--which I personally think DOES cause a problem to one's health. She wouldn't allow any debbie downers to visit her either (which I totally get).
When I went through my own cancer journey, detoxing my deep-seated negative emotions was part of my personal protocol. It was very freeing. But you can bet your sweet bippy that I allowed those down days as they came in order to walk through the darkness.
I agreed with Mr. Sloan that it puts a burden on the sick person, and it's often for our own comfort of not wanting to let the other person walk her journey that may mean walking to the other side.
Interesting that he used Elizabeth Edwards as an example of someone who succumbed but had a fighting spirit. We only got her public showing of spirit. We're not privy to the dark moments she had to have experienced knowing her two-timing lying scum of a husband sucker-punched her when she was down. It may just have been the final straw for her. We'll never know. But we can't ignore the fact that Giffords has a loving devoted husband by her side bringing good vibes to her healing while Elizabeth Edward's husband was busy with extra-curricular activities. It's all too subjective for Sloan to use those two examples for his argument. Too many underlying factors to take into account.
We can't measure the impact emotions, positive or negative, have on our health, but we can't ignore the impact either. We just need to refrain from placing judgment on them (good or bad) which then places judgment on those with the illness.
Personally, I felt the pressure to remain positive. Do many of you? But I also have a hard time not thinking that my generally positive attitude works to my health benefit.
just my $.02.
peace, emily0 -
Hi Em!!!2bhealed said:Interesting
When my sister was dying of intestinal cancer, a "friend" wrote me a letter telling me that my sister was dying because there was sin in her life for which she hadn't repented. Can you believe it?
My sister was the epitome of positive attitude--for the public eye. If you talked to her on the phone you'd never know she was sick. But because she (and others perhaps) put such pressure to always be positive, she never allowed herself to work through the reality that she was dying so she just stuffed those emotions down deep--which I personally think DOES cause a problem to one's health. She wouldn't allow any debbie downers to visit her either (which I totally get).
When I went through my own cancer journey, detoxing my deep-seated negative emotions was part of my personal protocol. It was very freeing. But you can bet your sweet bippy that I allowed those down days as they came in order to walk through the darkness.
I agreed with Mr. Sloan that it puts a burden on the sick person, and it's often for our own comfort of not wanting to let the other person walk her journey that may mean walking to the other side.
Interesting that he used Elizabeth Edwards as an example of someone who succumbed but had a fighting spirit. We only got her public showing of spirit. We're not privy to the dark moments she had to have experienced knowing her two-timing lying scum of a husband sucker-punched her when she was down. It may just have been the final straw for her. We'll never know. But we can't ignore the fact that Giffords has a loving devoted husband by her side bringing good vibes to her healing while Elizabeth Edward's husband was busy with extra-curricular activities. It's all too subjective for Sloan to use those two examples for his argument. Too many underlying factors to take into account.
We can't measure the impact emotions, positive or negative, have on our health, but we can't ignore the impact either. We just need to refrain from placing judgment on them (good or bad) which then places judgment on those with the illness.
Personally, I felt the pressure to remain positive. Do many of you? But I also have a hard time not thinking that my generally positive attitude works to my health benefit.
just my $.02.
peace, emily
Great response. I do think that negativity can cause stress and stress can cause illness. I do think we have to understand that everyone deals with cancer in their own way, even if that means not dealing with it at all.
I have mostly always kept a positive attitude about my cancer, even with the possibility of not making it past a year or two. Here it is 7 years later and while I am not clear at all, I mostly keep a positive attitude. It's basically my nature any way so it was not a very difficult thing for me to do. I do think that there is pressure on people in our situation to "not worry and be happy", or that "everything's going to be okay".
There was a book out a while ago that I posted about that dealt with the pressure on people to be positive all the time. I can't recall the title...
Here's my 2¢
-p0 -
Hey You!PhillieG said:Hi Em!!!
Great response. I do think that negativity can cause stress and stress can cause illness. I do think we have to understand that everyone deals with cancer in their own way, even if that means not dealing with it at all.
I have mostly always kept a positive attitude about my cancer, even with the possibility of not making it past a year or two. Here it is 7 years later and while I am not clear at all, I mostly keep a positive attitude. It's basically my nature any way so it was not a very difficult thing for me to do. I do think that there is pressure on people in our situation to "not worry and be happy", or that "everything's going to be okay".
There was a book out a while ago that I posted about that dealt with the pressure on people to be positive all the time. I can't recall the title...
Here's my 2¢
-p
Nice kitty.0 -
Buzz, Phil and Emily2bhealed said:Interesting
When my sister was dying of intestinal cancer, a "friend" wrote me a letter telling me that my sister was dying because there was sin in her life for which she hadn't repented. Can you believe it?
My sister was the epitome of positive attitude--for the public eye. If you talked to her on the phone you'd never know she was sick. But because she (and others perhaps) put such pressure to always be positive, she never allowed herself to work through the reality that she was dying so she just stuffed those emotions down deep--which I personally think DOES cause a problem to one's health. She wouldn't allow any debbie downers to visit her either (which I totally get).
When I went through my own cancer journey, detoxing my deep-seated negative emotions was part of my personal protocol. It was very freeing. But you can bet your sweet bippy that I allowed those down days as they came in order to walk through the darkness.
I agreed with Mr. Sloan that it puts a burden on the sick person, and it's often for our own comfort of not wanting to let the other person walk her journey that may mean walking to the other side.
Interesting that he used Elizabeth Edwards as an example of someone who succumbed but had a fighting spirit. We only got her public showing of spirit. We're not privy to the dark moments she had to have experienced knowing her two-timing lying scum of a husband sucker-punched her when she was down. It may just have been the final straw for her. We'll never know. But we can't ignore the fact that Giffords has a loving devoted husband by her side bringing good vibes to her healing while Elizabeth Edward's husband was busy with extra-curricular activities. It's all too subjective for Sloan to use those two examples for his argument. Too many underlying factors to take into account.
We can't measure the impact emotions, positive or negative, have on our health, but we can't ignore the impact either. We just need to refrain from placing judgment on them (good or bad) which then places judgment on those with the illness.
Personally, I felt the pressure to remain positive. Do many of you? But I also have a hard time not thinking that my generally positive attitude works to my health benefit.
just my $.02.
peace, emily
May the road rise to meet you.
Love
Buck0 -
always look on the brightside of life
thanks for sharing this research, even if its challenging my deeply help beliefs.
I read the study in detail and am now confused and mentally exhausted. This happens easily to Australians.
I found no evidence that challenges one of our ultimate anti cancer authorities Mr Monty Python. They did a study called the "meaning of life" they concluded "always look on the brightside of life" . This proved so popular that it became a famous song that I am singing to myself right now.
I have been told that stress causes cancer by heaps of people, friends, doctors and cancer specialists. furthermore the cancer specialists who run courses on how to survive cancer cite that peace and harmony and meditation help promote survival.
Now I have not been presented with scientific facts just volumes of people's anecdotal statements and some studies I have not even referenced. I just basically assumed the beliefs of people I was impressed by.
So my problem here is
Hundreds of years ago popular opinion believed the world to be flat!! so where does this lead me. Based on one study do I change my views. Or do I keep on rebroadcasting what I was convinced helps us survive ie positive thinking and inner peace helps us survive and stress and negative thinking helps us die.
Well over 25 years ago I read and was impressed by "Power of Positive Thinking" so its to late to teach this old dog new tricks.
I have also been advised humour and laughter help survival I hope they don't start studying and researching this area as well. Maybe one day all of my alternative supports could be removed and I will be left with just my oncologist for support. How boring would that be.
I enjoyed the serious discussion and hope that my light weight approach has not ruffled any feathers.
Oh one serious comment, my friend in remission a second time from breast cancer swears stress caused her reccurence. Now I have noticed in my wife and some friends a strange obsession to find a cause for my cancer or the cancer in a loved one.
I have not even been curious about the cause. I don't want to sue anyone or blame anything. not the butcher, the baker or the candle stick maker. I just want to survive.
I subscribe to the its impossible to tell, they don't even know how old it is. Knowing the cause does not help with the treatment options so its kind of wasted energy. Maybe the current low vitamin D3 theory is the real answer. who knows.
So for some of us we have to find a cause. Sometimes its not the cancer patients family or friends who blames them for worrying or not being positive its the cancer patient themselves looking for an answer to WHY THEM? .
Now ironically the answer they accept maybe STRESS caused my cancer. They can blame themselves. Even if not scientifically verifyable. what is real that my friend is not still chasing an answer, she is looking at her health and for a cure.
who knows ?
thanks for starting this topic.
Pete0 -
Thanks for this discussion!
This is an interesting discussion. Thanks to all who have contributed here!
In my own travels on this cancer path, I have run into many interesting beliefs that others have about what I am going through, the whys and hows and shoulds, as well as my own "deeply-held beliefs". I am naturally an optimist, though a skeptic too, and that has served me well in my relations with others– family, friends co-workers, my medical team, chemo nurses, even my surgeons who are tough nuts to get to crack a smile. I enjoy my life, and that helps me get up in the morning as well as deal with all the great difficulties and heartbreak with equanimity most of the time. However, especially during this recurrence or progression, I have had to make peace with the sobering fact that while I might experience great healing traveling this cancer path, I will still die, and the bright side is, I, more so than the "healthy" people, likely know what I will die from. My favorite book on this is Stephen Levine's "Healing into Life and Death".
Cancer is a difficult and complex disease to treat in our time. There is no cure. I think that is why it carries more stigma than say, heart disease, and is more like the stigma associated with AIDS. This scares people, and so often with good intent, though with poor results, they try and help us make it go away.
I believe there are many things that contribute to getting cancer, and there are many things that help it go dormant. In my own cancer beating program I try to, as much as possible, follow evidence-based programs, such as diet, exercise, supplements, meditation, complementary treatments using TCM, naturopath, anthroposophical medicine as well as western medicine. Most recently, trying to avoid chemo to deal with these slow growing lung mets because it would derail me from my immune enhancing program (and I do feel great), I was willing to do stereotactic radiation which derailed me less and got rid of the lung mets. I'm very happy buying quality of life time. Also, like any other human being, I harbor that secret, deeply buried belief that I will be the exception and escape death.
When I was first diagnosed, the opinions of others on how I should go about "fighting" this disease, what I should eat, what treatments I should do, how I should be (which was to be positive and upbeat) was very disturbing to me. Stories would be offered up such as, "Cancer is a journey"(yah? you go buy the ticket!) or "my uncle cured his cancer by eating almonds", or even worse, "oh sorry to hear that – my sister died from colorectal cancer….." I felt that, not only did I have a cancer dx, I also had a case of death cooties! It took awhile to sort through all that. Now I know that I am the only one response-able for everything that happens to me in my life and it's up to me to respond, or not. Other's opinions are just that. My capacity for compassion for me, and for others, has increased.
Many have already said something similar here, but I do believe we always have the choice to live our life as best we can, to be a decent human being, and it's up to us to do it. Cancer cannot take that from me.
all the best, Leslie0 -
Leslielesvanb said:Thanks for this discussion!
This is an interesting discussion. Thanks to all who have contributed here!
In my own travels on this cancer path, I have run into many interesting beliefs that others have about what I am going through, the whys and hows and shoulds, as well as my own "deeply-held beliefs". I am naturally an optimist, though a skeptic too, and that has served me well in my relations with others– family, friends co-workers, my medical team, chemo nurses, even my surgeons who are tough nuts to get to crack a smile. I enjoy my life, and that helps me get up in the morning as well as deal with all the great difficulties and heartbreak with equanimity most of the time. However, especially during this recurrence or progression, I have had to make peace with the sobering fact that while I might experience great healing traveling this cancer path, I will still die, and the bright side is, I, more so than the "healthy" people, likely know what I will die from. My favorite book on this is Stephen Levine's "Healing into Life and Death".
Cancer is a difficult and complex disease to treat in our time. There is no cure. I think that is why it carries more stigma than say, heart disease, and is more like the stigma associated with AIDS. This scares people, and so often with good intent, though with poor results, they try and help us make it go away.
I believe there are many things that contribute to getting cancer, and there are many things that help it go dormant. In my own cancer beating program I try to, as much as possible, follow evidence-based programs, such as diet, exercise, supplements, meditation, complementary treatments using TCM, naturopath, anthroposophical medicine as well as western medicine. Most recently, trying to avoid chemo to deal with these slow growing lung mets because it would derail me from my immune enhancing program (and I do feel great), I was willing to do stereotactic radiation which derailed me less and got rid of the lung mets. I'm very happy buying quality of life time. Also, like any other human being, I harbor that secret, deeply buried belief that I will be the exception and escape death.
When I was first diagnosed, the opinions of others on how I should go about "fighting" this disease, what I should eat, what treatments I should do, how I should be (which was to be positive and upbeat) was very disturbing to me. Stories would be offered up such as, "Cancer is a journey"(yah? you go buy the ticket!) or "my uncle cured his cancer by eating almonds", or even worse, "oh sorry to hear that – my sister died from colorectal cancer….." I felt that, not only did I have a cancer dx, I also had a case of death cooties! It took awhile to sort through all that. Now I know that I am the only one response-able for everything that happens to me in my life and it's up to me to respond, or not. Other's opinions are just that. My capacity for compassion for me, and for others, has increased.
Many have already said something similar here, but I do believe we always have the choice to live our life as best we can, to be a decent human being, and it's up to us to do it. Cancer cannot take that from me.
all the best, Leslie
"I do believe we always have the choice to live our life as best we can, to be a decent human being, and it's up to us to do it. Cancer cannot take that from me."
Well said.0 -
Having a positive spirit affects quality of lifeBuckwirth said:Leslie
"I do believe we always have the choice to live our life as best we can, to be a decent human being, and it's up to us to do it. Cancer cannot take that from me."
Well said.
I think that having a positive attitude affects one's quality of life, making it better. That is definitely true. But I think that the reason why people "survive" and others don't is mainly because of one's body chemistry, and reaction to drugs or complementary/ alternative/ integrative therapy. I think that the author is right when he says it can place a necessary burden on the patient. When my mother was diagnosed, it was a shock because she led a very healthy diet/ lifestyle. I had someone tell me that even though she's a good person, it may be because of something that happened in her past life! People say you get cancer because you eat meat, you drink milk, you eat eggs, you live in a bad environment...and now, add negativity to the mix. If we search hard enough (or maybe not even that hard), we can probably pin point a reason for anyone and everyone to get cancer. Until we know that cause, we will continue to place blame on a variety of things.
I think that everyone deals w/ cancer differently, and however they want to deal w/ it, most importantly, there needs to be a strong support system. I believe miracles happen and sometimes things just cannot be explained.0
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