UK doctors prescribing....placebo's

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Comments

  • dmj101
    dmj101 Member Posts: 527 Member

    Steve

    I think the idea that GP's prescribe unproven/CAM treatments very interesting concerning some of the discussions here on how 'valid' an alternative is and someones right to take it, Im very glad they do that rather than nothing. 

    As for 'shock headlines'...aren't all media guilty of that? 

    Now the 'urban legend' are you refering to the '"melted like snowballs" statement?"  I have to agree if a story is repeated often enough it can become 'true' however I never found any evidence that it didn't happen, still it wouldn't be the first time a placebo has had an effect that seemed unbelievable.  Vittorio Micheli springs immediatley to mind.

    Also there is the other side of the GP story, many people actually have nothing wrong with them in the first place, so it seems ok to give them nothing.

    However giving an antibiotic for a viral infection does seem negligent to me

    I have to add as well, the study came from Oxford University. Read the study here

    Unethical

    Bottom line is that this practice would be unethical.. and against the HYPOCRATIC Oath...

    and maybe even illegal not to treat a known disease....

    Maybe I am niave but I really and truly and whole heartedly believe this would never happen in the US.. and I highly doubt it would occur in the UK either.. though there is no accounting for sociallized medicine...

    Please have faith and stay clear of sensationalized headlines..

     

  • annalexandria
    annalexandria Member Posts: 2,571 Member
    Giving things that are "unproven"

    for a particular condition, like probiotics for digestive issues, is not the same as giving a sugar pill (although even then, if you read the article I linked, there can be actual physiological change as a result of the placebo).   But anyway...I'm not sure why this article is conflating the two.  "Placebo" is simply not the same as "treatment with no established efficacy" (given the standards required to establish efficacy in a scientifically acceptable fashion, I think docs probably do this on a fairly regular basis).  I find this more confusing than anything.  

    And that "melting snowball" story?  I'm sure you know, Tony, that not being able to find proof that something is an urban legend is not the same as saying that the story is true.  Especially when the story doesn't make a ton of sense.

    I'm in agreement with Steve on this one.

  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402

    Giving things that are "unproven"

    for a particular condition, like probiotics for digestive issues, is not the same as giving a sugar pill (although even then, if you read the article I linked, there can be actual physiological change as a result of the placebo).   But anyway...I'm not sure why this article is conflating the two.  "Placebo" is simply not the same as "treatment with no established efficacy" (given the standards required to establish efficacy in a scientifically acceptable fashion, I think docs probably do this on a fairly regular basis).  I find this more confusing than anything.  

    And that "melting snowball" story?  I'm sure you know, Tony, that not being able to find proof that something is an urban legend is not the same as saying that the story is true.  Especially when the story doesn't make a ton of sense.

    I'm in agreement with Steve on this one.

    Well.

    Because that "melting snowball" story happened so long ago, I assume the Doctor and nurses involved are no longer here, but Vittorio Micheli apparently is still alive and his is the most documented 'unbelievable' story of 'placebo'  so if his story is possible why not the other?

    But I will investigate further. I have to say though I know that story from an old book (pre-internet) and Im sure there is a checkable source.

    Did anyone actually read the original study?

    And not just the UK.

    "In a 1974 Scientific American article entitled the “Ethics of Giving Placebos,” the authors stated that “35-45 percent of all prescriptions are for substances that are incapable of having an effect on the condition for which they are prescribed.” Dr. Halstead Holman of Stanford University has noted that “three of four of the most commonly prescribed drugs treat no specific illness.”

    There are studies done in Europe too, I imagine it's a global phenomenon where doctor's would rather give something than nothing and not let their patients down.

  • annalexandria
    annalexandria Member Posts: 2,571 Member

    Well.

    Because that "melting snowball" story happened so long ago, I assume the Doctor and nurses involved are no longer here, but Vittorio Micheli apparently is still alive and his is the most documented 'unbelievable' story of 'placebo'  so if his story is possible why not the other?

    But I will investigate further. I have to say though I know that story from an old book (pre-internet) and Im sure there is a checkable source.

    Did anyone actually read the original study?

    And not just the UK.

    "In a 1974 Scientific American article entitled the “Ethics of Giving Placebos,” the authors stated that “35-45 percent of all prescriptions are for substances that are incapable of having an effect on the condition for which they are prescribed.” Dr. Halstead Holman of Stanford University has noted that “three of four of the most commonly prescribed drugs treat no specific illness.”

    There are studies done in Europe too, I imagine it's a global phenomenon where doctor's would rather give something than nothing and not let their patients down.

    Heh...

    you read my study, Tony, and I'll read yours!  That New Scientist article (how do you make a link clickable, anyway?) shows that the placebo effect may lead to actual, physiological results, so I'm not saying that the "snowball" story is impossible, but I would want to see some evidence,  like scans, doctor reports, etc.  The world of cancer is absolutely rife with fakers, including people who convince their own family members they have cancer, so I'm very suspicious of this sort of thing.   I don't know the Micheli story, will take a look.  There have been cases of spontaneous remission documented, so that can happen, although I believe it's very rare.  AA

    PS I'm sure docs do give placebo, especially if the study defined "placebo" as things "not proven to have an effect"...not arguing with you at all on that one.  But like I said in my previous comment, I don't think those things are the same at all, and I don't feel they should be lumped together.  Sugar pill does not equal probiotics, imo.

  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402

    Heh...

    you read my study, Tony, and I'll read yours!  That New Scientist article (how do you make a link clickable, anyway?) shows that the placebo effect may lead to actual, physiological results, so I'm not saying that the "snowball" story is impossible, but I would want to see some evidence,  like scans, doctor reports, etc.  The world of cancer is absolutely rife with fakers, including people who convince their own family members they have cancer, so I'm very suspicious of this sort of thing.   I don't know the Micheli story, will take a look.  There have been cases of spontaneous remission documented, so that can happen, although I believe it's very rare.  AA

    PS I'm sure docs do give placebo, especially if the study defined "placebo" as things "not proven to have an effect"...not arguing with you at all on that one.  But like I said in my previous comment, I don't think those things are the same at all, and I don't feel they should be lumped together.  Sugar pill does not equal probiotics, imo.

    I did read yours

    I read EVERYTHINGWink BTW sub to new scientist = epic win! when I get home (we are doing treatment) will look for the source of "snowballs" the Micheli story is even more strange, one of the few actual confirmed 'miracles' by the Catholic church.

    Now we arent arguing about anything, sugar pill does NOT equal probiotic or Vit D3, the study lumped them together not me. (but if you read the study.....)

    For the record I think GP's giving stuff they think might help is great!  Better than giving nothing and telling the person nothing to be done.

    Sponteneous remission (not even placebo) is very rare and usually preceded by a fever. Been looking at fever therapy with Coley toxin for a couple of years.

    *highlight* then click on *chain* paste URL click *insert*, done.

     

    Also the guy who was treated died of cancer, the FDA looked at the treatment and found it was worthless and charged the inventor with fraud, hard to see the 'angle' on this one except a potent placebo effect.

  • dmj101
    dmj101 Member Posts: 527 Member

    I did read yours

    I read EVERYTHINGWink BTW sub to new scientist = epic win! when I get home (we are doing treatment) will look for the source of "snowballs" the Micheli story is even more strange, one of the few actual confirmed 'miracles' by the Catholic church.

    Now we arent arguing about anything, sugar pill does NOT equal probiotic or Vit D3, the study lumped them together not me. (but if you read the study.....)

    For the record I think GP's giving stuff they think might help is great!  Better than giving nothing and telling the person nothing to be done.

    Sponteneous remission (not even placebo) is very rare and usually preceded by a fever. Been looking at fever therapy with Coley toxin for a couple of years.

    *highlight* then click on *chain* paste URL click *insert*, done.

     

    Also the guy who was treated died of cancer, the FDA looked at the treatment and found it was worthless and charged the inventor with fraud, hard to see the 'angle' on this one except a potent placebo effect.

    Just an FYI.... In the US...

    Just an FYI.... In the US... Trials and studies have been FDA regulated since the 80's. As have the rx's that are given out.. it is highly unlikely at least here in the US that this would ever happen. It is unethical and in this highly litigous society drs would be more likely to order more tests and get a definitive diagnosis before ever giving an rx for something that wouldn't treat what you got..

    This is the last I am checking this post.. You are sensationalizing a headline that is just trying to scare people.. and it is a shame people will follow this and think you are on to something when all you are doing is spreading fear.... Find something postive to post please..  time to move on...

  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402
    dmj101 said:

    Just an FYI.... In the US...

    Just an FYI.... In the US... Trials and studies have been FDA regulated since the 80's. As have the rx's that are given out.. it is highly unlikely at least here in the US that this would ever happen. It is unethical and in this highly litigous society drs would be more likely to order more tests and get a definitive diagnosis before ever giving an rx for something that wouldn't treat what you got..

    This is the last I am checking this post.. You are sensationalizing a headline that is just trying to scare people.. and it is a shame people will follow this and think you are on to something when all you are doing is spreading fear.... Find something postive to post please..  time to move on...

    Spreading fear?

    This IS a positive post....main stream doc's are helping people!      I really think you need to read the study, this is NOTHING to do with clinical trials.

    Jeez......

  • annalexandria
    annalexandria Member Posts: 2,571 Member

    I did read yours

    I read EVERYTHINGWink BTW sub to new scientist = epic win! when I get home (we are doing treatment) will look for the source of "snowballs" the Micheli story is even more strange, one of the few actual confirmed 'miracles' by the Catholic church.

    Now we arent arguing about anything, sugar pill does NOT equal probiotic or Vit D3, the study lumped them together not me. (but if you read the study.....)

    For the record I think GP's giving stuff they think might help is great!  Better than giving nothing and telling the person nothing to be done.

    Sponteneous remission (not even placebo) is very rare and usually preceded by a fever. Been looking at fever therapy with Coley toxin for a couple of years.

    *highlight* then click on *chain* paste URL click *insert*, done.

     

    Also the guy who was treated died of cancer, the FDA looked at the treatment and found it was worthless and charged the inventor with fraud, hard to see the 'angle' on this one except a potent placebo effect.

    there is a guy on the Colon Club forum (user lohidoc) who is doing a version of this.  Apparently very hush-hush and under the table, although he has found a doc in the States (i think) who will do it.  He recently posted his scan results and he has shown marked improvement (and he had a pretty major tumor load to begin with).  You might want to check out his story, see what you think.  He has a blog as well, where you could message him if you wanted to get more details.  Personally, I think there is something to the Coley's toxins concept, although it seems difficult to replicate safely.  Of course, not much is safe when it comes to cancer tx.

    And just for the record, I did read the study, and was arguing against the study's mixing of the two terms...I could tell that you weren't making that point.  

    And I would def recommend shelling out the big bucks for the New Scientist.  It's an awesome source for all things science-related, even for right-brain dummy history majors like me.  

  • annalexandria
    annalexandria Member Posts: 2,571 Member
    dmj101 said:

    Just an FYI.... In the US...

    Just an FYI.... In the US... Trials and studies have been FDA regulated since the 80's. As have the rx's that are given out.. it is highly unlikely at least here in the US that this would ever happen. It is unethical and in this highly litigous society drs would be more likely to order more tests and get a definitive diagnosis before ever giving an rx for something that wouldn't treat what you got..

    This is the last I am checking this post.. You are sensationalizing a headline that is just trying to scare people.. and it is a shame people will follow this and think you are on to something when all you are doing is spreading fear.... Find something postive to post please..  time to move on...

    Donna, the study is not talking about clinical trials at all.

    It's talking about docs giving their patients a variety of things that have not been scientifically proven  to treat a particular condition.  So if I go in to see my GP about my ongoing digestive issues and he gives me probiotics, that would be an example that could be included in this study.  I think mixing up placebo (as in sugar pills) with things like probiotics makes this study confusing and as you say, more sensationalized than it needs to be, but it's just not about clinical trials.  And it's not unethical for a doctor to try something with his/her patients that might help but hasn't yet met the high standard required to be considered efficacious in a clinical sense.  I don't see how this thread is "spreading fear".  But you aren't checking this thread anyway, so I may just be talking to myself here!  AA

  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402

    there is a guy on the Colon Club forum (user lohidoc) who is doing a version of this.  Apparently very hush-hush and under the table, although he has found a doc in the States (i think) who will do it.  He recently posted his scan results and he has shown marked improvement (and he had a pretty major tumor load to begin with).  You might want to check out his story, see what you think.  He has a blog as well, where you could message him if you wanted to get more details.  Personally, I think there is something to the Coley's toxins concept, although it seems difficult to replicate safely.  Of course, not much is safe when it comes to cancer tx.

    And just for the record, I did read the study, and was arguing against the study's mixing of the two terms...I could tell that you weren't making that point.  

    And I would def recommend shelling out the big bucks for the New Scientist.  It's an awesome source for all things science-related, even for right-brain dummy history majors like me.  

    Thanks Ann

    Will def. check him out,  I also found a clinic in the US which would do it but they wouldn't take kids, our Prof. does use it,  when he gets back into the country we will discuss it, your right it does have risks which is one reason Im not pushing it too hard, but we are getting nervous, scan time soon,  you know how it is...

  • annalexandria
    annalexandria Member Posts: 2,571 Member

    Thanks Ann

    Will def. check him out,  I also found a clinic in the US which would do it but they wouldn't take kids, our Prof. does use it,  when he gets back into the country we will discuss it, your right it does have risks which is one reason Im not pushing it too hard, but we are getting nervous, scan time soon,  you know how it is...

    Scan time is horrible...

    but scan time for your kid?  Ten million times more horrible, imo.  What you are dealing with is much, much harder than what I am dealing with.  By far.

  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402

    Scan time is horrible...

    but scan time for your kid?  Ten million times more horrible, imo.  What you are dealing with is much, much harder than what I am dealing with.  By far.

    Yeah

    MRI is in 8 days, but his birthday is on the 15th, reckon we will change it till after. 

    I posted to lohidoc's thread, hope he answers. Saw his scan's,  very impressive!!!

  • annalexandria
    annalexandria Member Posts: 2,571 Member

    Yeah

    MRI is in 8 days, but his birthday is on the 15th, reckon we will change it till after. 

    I posted to lohidoc's thread, hope he answers. Saw his scan's,  very impressive!!!

    How old is he turning, Tony?

    And I saw that Marc responded to you on Colon Club...I hope it's helpful for you!

  • renw
    renw Member Posts: 282 Member

    Thanks Ann

    Will def. check him out,  I also found a clinic in the US which would do it but they wouldn't take kids, our Prof. does use it,  when he gets back into the country we will discuss it, your right it does have risks which is one reason Im not pushing it too hard, but we are getting nervous, scan time soon,  you know how it is...

    Tony, have you by any chance

    Tony, have you by any chance found a source for coley's? Virtually all docs and clinics that used to offer it sourced it from mbvax.com, but they stopped production as were shut down for not having appropriate pharma grade manufacturing facilities.

  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402

    How old is he turning, Tony?

    And I saw that Marc responded to you on Colon Club...I hope it's helpful for you!

    He

    is turning 10, very important age here, he will be allowed to paintball!Laughing

  • manwithnoname
    manwithnoname Member Posts: 402
    renw said:

    Tony, have you by any chance

    Tony, have you by any chance found a source for coley's? Virtually all docs and clinics that used to offer it sourced it from mbvax.com, but they stopped production as were shut down for not having appropriate pharma grade manufacturing facilities.

    This was one of many options our Prof. put on the table ( actually he wrote them on the window ) at the time DC vax was our priority, but I knew Coleys from a few years ago, one of those interesting options put on the back burner, I also found it was hard to find a Doc. to do it, especially on a child, I did find one in the US. can't remember where.

    Our Doc.is on holiday for 2 weeks, when he gets back I will ask about his source.

    Because he is a Prof. he does have some very interesting things for 'research' 

    *edit*  found it;  http://www.camelotcancercare.com/blog/category/coleys-toxins/