Optimal diet for cancer: meat versus vegetarian--and related issues

RoseyR
RoseyR Member Posts: 471 Member
Find the current thread on the Paleo diet fascinating--and the ongoing controversies about all the following issues vital but confounding:

1) Whether or not cancer survivors should be eating meat--even organic, grass-fed meat;

Many alternative practitioners such as Dr. Russell Blaylock, recommend NO meat, or dairy, whatsoever because they are high in arachidonic acid; only raw goat's milk does he believe is entirely safe. Likewise, the China Study seems to endorse a diet very low in animal fat, correlating it with lower rates of cancer. Au contraire, Dr. Bruce West (publisher of Health Alert, the most intelligent journal of alternative medicine I have yet to read) claims that the last thing he would prescribe for a cancer patient is a very lowfat diet; he recommends a modified Mediterranean diet, "the healthiest in the world." And Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez, renowned for success in treating pancreatic cancer patients, prescribes a different diet for every single patient, based partly on blood type (I, for example, with "B positive" blood, would be urged to eat meat about twice a week or so) and partly on the nature of the cancer (blood cancers calling for meat and fish oil whereas "solid tumors" such as uterine and ovarian calling for a mostly vegetarian diet and flaxseed oil.

Tethys has posted some interesting information about the rationale for the "paleo" diet, which has gained some recent currency, based on knowledge about how our ancestors ate. What I would question here is the extent to which evolution has, over milennia, enabled us to adapt to many different diets. Whole grains, once the darling of nutritionists, have recently started to take a beating, with questions not only about their digestibility (gluten, etc) but their tendency to raise blood sugar levels.

Tempted to reduce my consumption of grains and opt for mostly salads recently, I noted how much better I had felt when eating brown rice and black beans at least four times a week--and discovered how high they are in IP-6, now available as a supplement that has the alternative oncological community buzzing. (If you Google IP-6, you'll find that it allegedly does the following: bolsters production of NK white cells (the ones that destroy cancer cells), reduces the risk of metastasis, boosts energy, boosts mood, and chelates excessive iron (a search for the last property is how I found articles on this supplement).
Nuts and grains are high in IP-6--reminding me of why, perhaps, I was in such a good mood during my first three months of chemo, when I ate oatmeal with nuts and berries every single morning and brown rice with beans (and other veggies, of course) many nights.


2) Whether or not we should be eating (a la The China Project) a low protein diet;

Yes, the China Study would seem to urge us toward a vegetarian diet fairly low in protein. But as Tethys has noted, there are online some brilliant critiques of the book claiming flaws in its methodology. And although minimizing food intake has often been shown in clinical studies to increase longevity, just last week I read some fascinating studies showing that in mice (granted, just mice) implanted with sarcomatous tumors, those tumors grew fastest in the presence of a high-protein OR very low protein diet. Were I to take those studies seriously, moderate protein consumption would seem to make sense.


3) Whether we are defective in digesting protein because we lack vital enzymes and HCL.
Difficulty in digesting certain proteins are often ascribed to cancer patients. If this trait has been accurately observed, it bears to reason that we need to augment our digestive systems with enzymes and/or HCL (hydrochloric acid), both of which tend to become depleted as we age. (Many who are taking OTC anti-acids actually suffer from LOW stomach acid, claims Dr. Jonathan Wright and Dr. Bruce West; what they need is more HCL (a very inexpensive supplement), taking it with each meal for just a few months until their systems start producting more HCL of their own. Without adequate HCL or enzymes, all the vitamins in the world--and even nourishing food--aren't going to be absorbed.

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on any or all of these issues. If any one fo the intrigues you, perhaps we could even form research committees to try to resolve them!

Thanks,
Rosey
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Comments

  • california_artist
    california_artist Member Posts: 816 Member
    Rosey,
    I am not ignoring you, I am thinking of all you have said. and sorta crying little tears of happiness at your tendency to ponder things.

    We could start a cancer reading book club, where some of those interested read the books and say their opinions, and the others of us think on those opinions and offer some of own back after we've had a chance to dwell on things a bit.

    There have been so many really interesting yet differing points of view of late, I feel like we are in a research discussion group.

    You, being of the NY area are familiar no doubt with the easy, though often loud discussions that get going when friends get together and try to hash out some quandary.

    You and Kate and Bea, Jill, etc have raised great questions of late.

    You know, a great many of the most famous artists hung around together and inspired each other's work. Degas even painted on one of Mary Cassatt's paintings. I personally don't like people painting on my work, but were it Degas I might tend to let it slide.

    One simple thing we could do is to try to remember to give the url of information we found on the net.

    You know, Rosey, I do think it's the totality of what you do that determines how your body deals with cancer. I might hear that someone is on a vegetarian diet and yet has failed, only to find out that say, they ate no raw vegetables, or drank copious amounts of diet drinks, or were over balanced on the side of grains, or thought regular vinegar which is so acidic is the same as apple cider vinegar which is not acidic but alkaline, or they under the most enormous amount of stress and maybe have been for some time. Do we have a support system, do we slip in our endeavors, I think I have recently fallen off the cliff on really doing what I need to do, in my estimation, for myself. I am really risking things here by not doing what I feel I should. Kinda scares me some.

    It might be prudent for those of us really interested t keep journals of food in and exercise done, stress in our lives, other health conditions. I know this has been mentioned, I probably mentioned it myself, but I just haven't yet embraced the idea. I'll try again.

    Love ya,

    Claudia
  • JoAnnDK
    JoAnnDK Member Posts: 275

    Rosey,
    I am not ignoring you, I am thinking of all you have said. and sorta crying little tears of happiness at your tendency to ponder things.

    We could start a cancer reading book club, where some of those interested read the books and say their opinions, and the others of us think on those opinions and offer some of own back after we've had a chance to dwell on things a bit.

    There have been so many really interesting yet differing points of view of late, I feel like we are in a research discussion group.

    You, being of the NY area are familiar no doubt with the easy, though often loud discussions that get going when friends get together and try to hash out some quandary.

    You and Kate and Bea, Jill, etc have raised great questions of late.

    You know, a great many of the most famous artists hung around together and inspired each other's work. Degas even painted on one of Mary Cassatt's paintings. I personally don't like people painting on my work, but were it Degas I might tend to let it slide.

    One simple thing we could do is to try to remember to give the url of information we found on the net.

    You know, Rosey, I do think it's the totality of what you do that determines how your body deals with cancer. I might hear that someone is on a vegetarian diet and yet has failed, only to find out that say, they ate no raw vegetables, or drank copious amounts of diet drinks, or were over balanced on the side of grains, or thought regular vinegar which is so acidic is the same as apple cider vinegar which is not acidic but alkaline, or they under the most enormous amount of stress and maybe have been for some time. Do we have a support system, do we slip in our endeavors, I think I have recently fallen off the cliff on really doing what I need to do, in my estimation, for myself. I am really risking things here by not doing what I feel I should. Kinda scares me some.

    It might be prudent for those of us really interested t keep journals of food in and exercise done, stress in our lives, other health conditions. I know this has been mentioned, I probably mentioned it myself, but I just haven't yet embraced the idea. I'll try again.

    Love ya,

    Claudia

    my thoughts.....
    Tethys ---Interesting information from your naturopath (and Dr. Block). I am leery of some of Campbell's research methods for the China Study. His stated intention was to seek associations between animal food consumption and disease. This perversion of data is known as "confirmation bias". This is when a researcher only looks for data that will support a conclusion that s/he has already reached.

    Correlation doesn't equal causation. Campbell's is merely an observational study and does not prove causation any more than it can be proven that "a rooster crowing causes sunrises". Anyone who has ever done research knows that observational studies like this do not prove causation and are not meaningful in terms of causation. An hypothesis is not a fact.

    Any scientist worth his/her salt will tell you that all you can do with data from observational studies is use them to form hypotheses that can be rigorously tested in randomized, controlled trials. Then and only then (assuming the study results show it) can you even begin to talk about causation. Campbell did no randomized, controlled trials. NONE

    In reality, The China Study is not a study, but a collection of observations that were compiled. An actual study uses either animals or humans to test a theory. Dr. Campbell used neither.

    In fact, Campbell says "The China Study was an important milestone in my thinking. Standing alone, it does not prove that diet causes disease." p 107

    Campbell's association with PETA also makes me question his motives.

    I have read many critiques of his work and they all have had very valid and logical points.
  • JoAnnDK
    JoAnnDK Member Posts: 275
    JoAnnDK said:

    my thoughts.....
    Tethys ---Interesting information from your naturopath (and Dr. Block). I am leery of some of Campbell's research methods for the China Study. His stated intention was to seek associations between animal food consumption and disease. This perversion of data is known as "confirmation bias". This is when a researcher only looks for data that will support a conclusion that s/he has already reached.

    Correlation doesn't equal causation. Campbell's is merely an observational study and does not prove causation any more than it can be proven that "a rooster crowing causes sunrises". Anyone who has ever done research knows that observational studies like this do not prove causation and are not meaningful in terms of causation. An hypothesis is not a fact.

    Any scientist worth his/her salt will tell you that all you can do with data from observational studies is use them to form hypotheses that can be rigorously tested in randomized, controlled trials. Then and only then (assuming the study results show it) can you even begin to talk about causation. Campbell did no randomized, controlled trials. NONE

    In reality, The China Study is not a study, but a collection of observations that were compiled. An actual study uses either animals or humans to test a theory. Dr. Campbell used neither.

    In fact, Campbell says "The China Study was an important milestone in my thinking. Standing alone, it does not prove that diet causes disease." p 107

    Campbell's association with PETA also makes me question his motives.

    I have read many critiques of his work and they all have had very valid and logical points.

    tests for those on plant-based diets
    I was poking around online last night and found an article that said that those on plant-based diets need to be monitored to be sure all of their nutritional needs are being met. Of course, I cannot find that article now, but this doctor lists the same tests.

    http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2011/08/25/top-10-blood-tests-for-vegetarians-and-vegans/

    To summarize, these are the tests:

    Complete Blood Count with Differential and Platelets
    Comprehensive Chemistry/Metabolic Panel
    Ferritin
    Folic Acid
    Homocysteine
    Iron, total and IBC
    Lipid Panel
    Methylmalonic Acid, Serum
    Vitamin B12
    Vitamin D3, 25 Hydroxy
  • culka
    culka Member Posts: 149 Member
    JoAnnDK said:

    tests for those on plant-based diets
    I was poking around online last night and found an article that said that those on plant-based diets need to be monitored to be sure all of their nutritional needs are being met. Of course, I cannot find that article now, but this doctor lists the same tests.

    http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2011/08/25/top-10-blood-tests-for-vegetarians-and-vegans/

    To summarize, these are the tests:

    Complete Blood Count with Differential and Platelets
    Comprehensive Chemistry/Metabolic Panel
    Ferritin
    Folic Acid
    Homocysteine
    Iron, total and IBC
    Lipid Panel
    Methylmalonic Acid, Serum
    Vitamin B12
    Vitamin D3, 25 Hydroxy

    I read this Kevin's article and many more
    and do you know that many people are B12 or vitD deficient even if their are meat-eater.

    Just saying.

    Dr. Campbell spent 40 years studying nutrition and now it is what, vasted time? I don't think so. Maybe his speed of thinking is so fast, he was not able to put everything on paper.
    And we already know what we can find on internet.
  • daisy366
    daisy366 Member Posts: 1,458 Member
    culka said:

    I read this Kevin's article and many more
    and do you know that many people are B12 or vitD deficient even if their are meat-eater.

    Just saying.

    Dr. Campbell spent 40 years studying nutrition and now it is what, vasted time? I don't think so. Maybe his speed of thinking is so fast, he was not able to put everything on paper.
    And we already know what we can find on internet.

    Good question, Rosey
    I think this question is a good one but quite polarizing, like so many things in our society. There will be people on both sides of the animal product issue trying to convince the others that they are wrong or misguided. So, I have decided to look at the data that I have read, heard, experienced and make my own decision. I don't need to fight about it or convince others at this point.

    Very few things in life are perfect or black and white. I think we all do the best we can. I agree that we all have our motivations and maybe some have hidden agendas, but I am basing my decision on what I think makes sense. And that decision is....

    As much plant based as possible. I see evidence that makes me deduct that animal products are a friend to cancer and other illnesses (insulin growth factor-1 for example, hormones that feed cancer, cholesterol that clogs blood vessels, fat that stores toxins, are highly acidic, etc.). I "cheat" with a splash of milk in my coffee, a little butter on my bread, and a bit of cheese or fish here and there.

    I started this last week - definitely a short time - but I'm hopeful it will become easier with time.... And that I won't feel deprived.

    All the best to each of us and we find our way through all the decisions we need to make.

    Mary Ann
  • jazzy1
    jazzy1 Member Posts: 1,379
    daisy366 said:

    Good question, Rosey
    I think this question is a good one but quite polarizing, like so many things in our society. There will be people on both sides of the animal product issue trying to convince the others that they are wrong or misguided. So, I have decided to look at the data that I have read, heard, experienced and make my own decision. I don't need to fight about it or convince others at this point.

    Very few things in life are perfect or black and white. I think we all do the best we can. I agree that we all have our motivations and maybe some have hidden agendas, but I am basing my decision on what I think makes sense. And that decision is....

    As much plant based as possible. I see evidence that makes me deduct that animal products are a friend to cancer and other illnesses (insulin growth factor-1 for example, hormones that feed cancer, cholesterol that clogs blood vessels, fat that stores toxins, are highly acidic, etc.). I "cheat" with a splash of milk in my coffee, a little butter on my bread, and a bit of cheese or fish here and there.

    I started this last week - definitely a short time - but I'm hopeful it will become easier with time.... And that I won't feel deprived.

    All the best to each of us and we find our way through all the decisions we need to make.

    Mary Ann

    Rosey & Claudia~
    Ladies you've both brought up some very interesting ideas to ponder. Life as Mary Ann noted, isn't just BLACK AND WHITE...it's very complicated, as such are our bodies. I can be the best person to follow a "plant-based" diet, but on the other side, life for me is could be very stressful, depleting my body of proper nutrients. Or...not exercising or drinking enough water which all have a bearing on our systems. Or...I might have high blood pressure and on meds...causing side affects, which strain my bodily system. All these other external things cause our bodies to strain, outside of the normal routine of functioning.

    I'd like to think we can all express our ideas and opinions, here, but in the end we all do what WE FEEL IS BEST FOR OUR BODIES.....

    Keep the cross talking going...very interesting topics!!!

    Hugs,
    Jan
  • JoAnnDK
    JoAnnDK Member Posts: 275
    jazzy1 said:

    Rosey & Claudia~
    Ladies you've both brought up some very interesting ideas to ponder. Life as Mary Ann noted, isn't just BLACK AND WHITE...it's very complicated, as such are our bodies. I can be the best person to follow a "plant-based" diet, but on the other side, life for me is could be very stressful, depleting my body of proper nutrients. Or...not exercising or drinking enough water which all have a bearing on our systems. Or...I might have high blood pressure and on meds...causing side affects, which strain my bodily system. All these other external things cause our bodies to strain, outside of the normal routine of functioning.

    I'd like to think we can all express our ideas and opinions, here, but in the end we all do what WE FEEL IS BEST FOR OUR BODIES.....

    Keep the cross talking going...very interesting topics!!!

    Hugs,
    Jan

    scientific method
    "Dr. Campbell spent 40 years studying nutrition and now it is what, vasted time? I don't think so. Maybe his speed of thinking is so fast, he was not able to put everything on paper."

    This was meant to be funny, correct? If he could not put everything down on paper, how did he manage to write two HUGE studies? He did not really study "nutrition" as such......he wanted to prove that meat is bad and he manipulated his observations and data to prove it.

    The fact is, he conducted NO tests. Without tests, there is no proof.

    Sorry.....but I am a pragmatist and I require proof. Not just a hypothesis. Hypotheses are a dime a dozen.

    It is like me saying "Five women in this group eat a lot of fruit. They have had recurrences. Therefore they need to stop eating fruit." Now, isn't that a silly conclusion? But it is what I observed. And that is all Campbell did, observe.
  • bea-mil
    bea-mil Member Posts: 108
    JoAnnDK said:

    scientific method
    "Dr. Campbell spent 40 years studying nutrition and now it is what, vasted time? I don't think so. Maybe his speed of thinking is so fast, he was not able to put everything on paper."

    This was meant to be funny, correct? If he could not put everything down on paper, how did he manage to write two HUGE studies? He did not really study "nutrition" as such......he wanted to prove that meat is bad and he manipulated his observations and data to prove it.

    The fact is, he conducted NO tests. Without tests, there is no proof.

    Sorry.....but I am a pragmatist and I require proof. Not just a hypothesis. Hypotheses are a dime a dozen.

    It is like me saying "Five women in this group eat a lot of fruit. They have had recurrences. Therefore they need to stop eating fruit." Now, isn't that a silly conclusion? But it is what I observed. And that is all Campbell did, observe.

    Scientific method
    There are so many diets: low carb, paleo, Budwig,s, Gerson’s etc. and many, many theories. Which one to chose? Which one to follow? What is really a proof? ...maybe some laboratory test is? Everyone can write a diet book followed by the line of supplements and energy bars (like paleo authors do) and make a big money on it. Can we just use our own sense and judgment?

    There is no ideal diet for everyone, because everyone is different. Over the last century there have been two fundamental facts in the study of human nutrition that have kept coming up over and over again and they are:
    -Food is most nutritious and healthy in its whole, raw food state.
    -Each person has totally different nutritional requirements for food based on their genetics. These requirements apply to the macronutrients (protein, fats and carbohydrates) and the micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals and trace mineral)

    Here are some examples of the different foods different people ate as witnessed by a 10 year study by Dr Weston Price:
    -The Alaskan Eskimos lived on a highly carnivorous diet of protein, fat and nearly zero carbohydrate and defied the 'then known' laws of nutrition yet enjoyed vigorous health.
    -The Australian Aborigines thrived on sea cow, shell fish, dugong and other types of sea food which was supplemented with some sea plants.
    -The isolated Swiss from the Loetschental Valley thrived on dairy from pasture fed cows and rye bread.
    -The Quechtus Indians of South America lived on a near vegetarian diet of vegetables and fruit but ate small rodents that were available to them and also enjoyed excellent health yet their diet was the polar opposite of the Eskimo.

    I have studied different diets, and I have incorporated into mine some of the rules from many of them, but my number one rule is to be close to the nature and follow my instinct.... so I stick to whole, raw food diet with some exemption (I cook legumes, potatoes etc), eat more veggies than fruits, don’t eat meat (which I’ve always hated even though my blood type is 0), eat some dairy products (organic kefir, cottage cheese and eggs only!!), eat organic fish once or twice a week(no small seafood which is very toxic, as these creature leave at the bottom of the sea were all heavy metals are cumulate), avoid grains, (eat only occasionally whole grain bread), don’t eat processed food, don’t eat sugar (bake my own sweat treats using xylitol), use a lot of anticancer spices.

    I think we should always do what we feel is right for us. However, do so responsibly and consciously considering all aspects. Listen to your body and work with it to tell you how it feels what it needs and how it should be nourished. Listen to your mind and be analytical about any kind of health or nutritional advice you come across, and discern with wisdom. But above all, don’t forget to listen to your heart and soul and take into account what will give you the most inner peace.
  • Kaleena
    Kaleena Member Posts: 2,088 Member
    jazzy1 said:

    Rosey & Claudia~
    Ladies you've both brought up some very interesting ideas to ponder. Life as Mary Ann noted, isn't just BLACK AND WHITE...it's very complicated, as such are our bodies. I can be the best person to follow a "plant-based" diet, but on the other side, life for me is could be very stressful, depleting my body of proper nutrients. Or...not exercising or drinking enough water which all have a bearing on our systems. Or...I might have high blood pressure and on meds...causing side affects, which strain my bodily system. All these other external things cause our bodies to strain, outside of the normal routine of functioning.

    I'd like to think we can all express our ideas and opinions, here, but in the end we all do what WE FEEL IS BEST FOR OUR BODIES.....

    Keep the cross talking going...very interesting topics!!!

    Hugs,
    Jan

    The Thin Line
    What it really comes down to is balance, because we all know that too much of one thing or not enough of another thing can cause problems. When you really look at it, there is a really thin line to balance. But I feel my best when I believe I am in balance with what I eat, etc. Our bodies require a certain amount of fat, sugars, salt, etc. Like everthing else, though, each of us is different and require different stuff to keep ourselves in balance.

    I know, blah, blah, blah. Easier said. Although through my own experience, whenever I would eat certain foods, I would feel sluggish, etc. Other foods would give me energy. It wasn't until I was eating the right type of foods that I automatically began to lose the weight that I had gained on chemo (and that took over 5 years to get to).

    Another thing, just because we eat the right things doesn't mean we wont get cancer or that it will keep cancer at bey for a long time. Environmental factors can contaminate the "good" foods and water that we eat and drink. For example, when I first started with eating the right food, I had made a vegetarian dish and after I had already eaten some, I got a computerized telephone call from my grocery store where I bought cucumbers indicating that the cucumbers that I just bought were being recalled for a possible ecoli contamination. (Yikes!) Tap water is full of stuff, bottled water is contaminated by using plastic bottles, you have teflon, microwaves, pollutants, hormone feed animals, etc.

    So I am saying what Jan is saying, do what is best for our own bodies or at least feels best. I still do have a piece of cake (but I have like two bites not a 2 x 2 piece) and other ways that I cut down on things.

    I wish there was a test to tell us what our bodies need (like fats, salts, etc.) then we would know more about what to eat! But then again, my body tells me that but am I really listening?

    Thanks for the topics. It really makes you think!

    Kathy
  • jazzy1
    jazzy1 Member Posts: 1,379
    Kaleena said:

    The Thin Line
    What it really comes down to is balance, because we all know that too much of one thing or not enough of another thing can cause problems. When you really look at it, there is a really thin line to balance. But I feel my best when I believe I am in balance with what I eat, etc. Our bodies require a certain amount of fat, sugars, salt, etc. Like everthing else, though, each of us is different and require different stuff to keep ourselves in balance.

    I know, blah, blah, blah. Easier said. Although through my own experience, whenever I would eat certain foods, I would feel sluggish, etc. Other foods would give me energy. It wasn't until I was eating the right type of foods that I automatically began to lose the weight that I had gained on chemo (and that took over 5 years to get to).

    Another thing, just because we eat the right things doesn't mean we wont get cancer or that it will keep cancer at bey for a long time. Environmental factors can contaminate the "good" foods and water that we eat and drink. For example, when I first started with eating the right food, I had made a vegetarian dish and after I had already eaten some, I got a computerized telephone call from my grocery store where I bought cucumbers indicating that the cucumbers that I just bought were being recalled for a possible ecoli contamination. (Yikes!) Tap water is full of stuff, bottled water is contaminated by using plastic bottles, you have teflon, microwaves, pollutants, hormone feed animals, etc.

    So I am saying what Jan is saying, do what is best for our own bodies or at least feels best. I still do have a piece of cake (but I have like two bites not a 2 x 2 piece) and other ways that I cut down on things.

    I wish there was a test to tell us what our bodies need (like fats, salts, etc.) then we would know more about what to eat! But then again, my body tells me that but am I really listening?

    Thanks for the topics. It really makes you think!

    Kathy

    Kathy
    I can't say enough about how much control we hold and on other side how much of this is completely out of our control, regarding our health. Brings to mind people who smoke and how what they inject into our environment is inhaled into our bodies. How many of us have heard about people who die from second hand smoke???? I can list a few....and most of these people did have good health, but just happen to live with a smoker and/or associate with one outside of the home. Or...people who live by powder lines, as so much research has correlated living near power lines with a number of serious diseases....cancer, depression, miscarriage and alzheimers.

    Life is complicated and so are our bodies! I for one, do what I can, as many of the cards aren't held in my hands....

    Hugs,
    Jan
  • Tethys41
    Tethys41 Member Posts: 1,382 Member
    Kaleena said:

    The Thin Line
    What it really comes down to is balance, because we all know that too much of one thing or not enough of another thing can cause problems. When you really look at it, there is a really thin line to balance. But I feel my best when I believe I am in balance with what I eat, etc. Our bodies require a certain amount of fat, sugars, salt, etc. Like everthing else, though, each of us is different and require different stuff to keep ourselves in balance.

    I know, blah, blah, blah. Easier said. Although through my own experience, whenever I would eat certain foods, I would feel sluggish, etc. Other foods would give me energy. It wasn't until I was eating the right type of foods that I automatically began to lose the weight that I had gained on chemo (and that took over 5 years to get to).

    Another thing, just because we eat the right things doesn't mean we wont get cancer or that it will keep cancer at bey for a long time. Environmental factors can contaminate the "good" foods and water that we eat and drink. For example, when I first started with eating the right food, I had made a vegetarian dish and after I had already eaten some, I got a computerized telephone call from my grocery store where I bought cucumbers indicating that the cucumbers that I just bought were being recalled for a possible ecoli contamination. (Yikes!) Tap water is full of stuff, bottled water is contaminated by using plastic bottles, you have teflon, microwaves, pollutants, hormone feed animals, etc.

    So I am saying what Jan is saying, do what is best for our own bodies or at least feels best. I still do have a piece of cake (but I have like two bites not a 2 x 2 piece) and other ways that I cut down on things.

    I wish there was a test to tell us what our bodies need (like fats, salts, etc.) then we would know more about what to eat! But then again, my body tells me that but am I really listening?

    Thanks for the topics. It really makes you think!

    Kathy

    Testing
    Kathy,
    You bring up a very valid point. I have been working with a naturopath for the last two years. Read on, this post will end up being of interest to everyone. She has tested me and tested me and tested me. But we know how my body works, what my body metabolizes and does not metabolize and why. If you really are at a loss as to diet and supplements, I recommed working with a skilled naturopath or integrative practitioner. They can identify genetic issues related to processing of nutrients.
    For example, we learned two years ago that I do not possess the GSTM1 gene. This gene is essential for the production of glutathione, a powerful antioxidant. Therefore, my body cannot produce glutatione. When we learned this, the approach was to supplement with glutathione, primarily via IV, but also sublingually. I've been merrily complying for the last two years, but at the naturopathic conference, weekend before last, the results of further research indicates that this polymorphism (lack of the GSTM1 gene) also means that my body cannot process glutathione.
    So, the new solution is to completely bypass that pathway by supplementing with sulforaphane/broccoli extract or eating an inordinate amount of broccoli. So here is where it becomes more pertinant to the rest of you. At this same presentation they reported that 85% of people who develop cancer possess this same genetic mutation. This is essential information, but our medical doctors don't provide it. You can get tested, through hair sample, to show how your body is metabolizing nutrients, so can identify your deficiencies. You can have genetic testing done through Genova Diagnostics to identify most of your risks for disease and cancer. I've learned that my Achille's heel with regard to the cancer thing is stress and inflammation. Other people may have issues with regard to hormones. But once you know where to put your focus, you can reduce your risk. There are a lot of tools available to us to help us make these decisions.
  • RoseyR
    RoseyR Member Posts: 471 Member
    Tethys41 said:

    Testing
    Kathy,
    You bring up a very valid point. I have been working with a naturopath for the last two years. Read on, this post will end up being of interest to everyone. She has tested me and tested me and tested me. But we know how my body works, what my body metabolizes and does not metabolize and why. If you really are at a loss as to diet and supplements, I recommed working with a skilled naturopath or integrative practitioner. They can identify genetic issues related to processing of nutrients.
    For example, we learned two years ago that I do not possess the GSTM1 gene. This gene is essential for the production of glutathione, a powerful antioxidant. Therefore, my body cannot produce glutatione. When we learned this, the approach was to supplement with glutathione, primarily via IV, but also sublingually. I've been merrily complying for the last two years, but at the naturopathic conference, weekend before last, the results of further research indicates that this polymorphism (lack of the GSTM1 gene) also means that my body cannot process glutathione.
    So, the new solution is to completely bypass that pathway by supplementing with sulforaphane/broccoli extract or eating an inordinate amount of broccoli. So here is where it becomes more pertinant to the rest of you. At this same presentation they reported that 85% of people who develop cancer possess this same genetic mutation. This is essential information, but our medical doctors don't provide it. You can get tested, through hair sample, to show how your body is metabolizing nutrients, so can identify your deficiencies. You can have genetic testing done through Genova Diagnostics to identify most of your risks for disease and cancer. I've learned that my Achille's heel with regard to the cancer thing is stress and inflammation. Other people may have issues with regard to hormones. But once you know where to put your focus, you can reduce your risk. There are a lot of tools available to us to help us make these decisions.

    Thanks for Superb Response

    Tethys,

    Although I'm interested in the "theoretical" rationales for the paleo and other diets, I agree that ultimately, we need to listen to our bodies. A highly intuitive person by nature, I've developed a way of eating that, I think, is working pretty well for me:

    __________________

    lots of vegetables (both raw and cooked as well as soups)
    only berries for fruit (about half a cup a day)
    grains (oats, quinoa, brown rice)and legumes nearly once daily
    fish about twice a week
    small portions of organic meat (usually turkey) and either goat or sheep cheese.
    two or three handfuls of nuts a day (mostly walnuts, almonds, and some pecans)
    loads of green tea
    ginger, garlic, turmeric as spices, etc.
    _________________

    Like many, however, I am fascinated by new information on nutrition.

    And what Tethys says about genetic testing makes the MOST sense to me, confirming our reminders to each other that we are all biochemically a bit different, with varied capacities to absorb certain nutrients.

    And despite these variations, we may also SHARE--as cancer patients--certain genetic propensities. That missing GSTM gene could be crucial since glutiathione is so essential an antioxidant, and cancer patients, from what I've read, are often low in glutathione. (I drink whey protein powder shake most mornings partly because whey is a precursor of glutathione. Swear I feel better when I drink my daily whey shake; I add blueberries or half a banana.)

    Thanks for great information, Tethys!

    Rosey
  • RoseyR
    RoseyR Member Posts: 471 Member
    RoseyR said:

    Thanks for Superb Response

    Tethys,

    Although I'm interested in the "theoretical" rationales for the paleo and other diets, I agree that ultimately, we need to listen to our bodies. A highly intuitive person by nature, I've developed a way of eating that, I think, is working pretty well for me:

    __________________

    lots of vegetables (both raw and cooked as well as soups)
    only berries for fruit (about half a cup a day)
    grains (oats, quinoa, brown rice)and legumes nearly once daily
    fish about twice a week
    small portions of organic meat (usually turkey) and either goat or sheep cheese.
    two or three handfuls of nuts a day (mostly walnuts, almonds, and some pecans)
    loads of green tea
    ginger, garlic, turmeric as spices, etc.
    _________________

    Like many, however, I am fascinated by new information on nutrition.

    And what Tethys says about genetic testing makes the MOST sense to me, confirming our reminders to each other that we are all biochemically a bit different, with varied capacities to absorb certain nutrients.

    And despite these variations, we may also SHARE--as cancer patients--certain genetic propensities. That missing GSTM gene could be crucial since glutiathione is so essential an antioxidant, and cancer patients, from what I've read, are often low in glutathione. (I drink whey protein powder shake most mornings partly because whey is a precursor of glutathione. Swear I feel better when I drink my daily whey shake; I add blueberries or half a banana.)

    Thanks for great information, Tethys!

    Rosey

    Postscript

    Given your informaton about sulphorane/broccoli, want to add that brussel spouts in my stir fries ALWAYS makes me feel better--perhaps because of their high sulfur content?

    And that I eat small portions of organic meat or goat/sheep cheese just two to three times a week. Usually turkey, never chicken, rarely, beef or pork.

    Mercola's post of the day notes how protective walnuts are against breast and prostate cancers, also slowing the progress of pre-existing tumors in at least one study.

    For all of us interested in the nutritional dimensions of this disease, I think that refining our diets is a constant, subtle, ongoing process--and one we should approach less with stress than fascination.

    And always, enjoyment. (Even when I have a prior misgiving, I ALWAYS enjoy my meals!)

    Rosey
  • Kaleena
    Kaleena Member Posts: 2,088 Member
    Thank you!
    Thank you ladies for the great topic and responses. I am going to look more into the suggestions here.

    Hoping everyone is having a great day today.

    Kathy

    P.S. Finally sunny here in Pennsylvania!
  • soromer
    soromer Member Posts: 130

    Rosey,
    I am not ignoring you, I am thinking of all you have said. and sorta crying little tears of happiness at your tendency to ponder things.

    We could start a cancer reading book club, where some of those interested read the books and say their opinions, and the others of us think on those opinions and offer some of own back after we've had a chance to dwell on things a bit.

    There have been so many really interesting yet differing points of view of late, I feel like we are in a research discussion group.

    You, being of the NY area are familiar no doubt with the easy, though often loud discussions that get going when friends get together and try to hash out some quandary.

    You and Kate and Bea, Jill, etc have raised great questions of late.

    You know, a great many of the most famous artists hung around together and inspired each other's work. Degas even painted on one of Mary Cassatt's paintings. I personally don't like people painting on my work, but were it Degas I might tend to let it slide.

    One simple thing we could do is to try to remember to give the url of information we found on the net.

    You know, Rosey, I do think it's the totality of what you do that determines how your body deals with cancer. I might hear that someone is on a vegetarian diet and yet has failed, only to find out that say, they ate no raw vegetables, or drank copious amounts of diet drinks, or were over balanced on the side of grains, or thought regular vinegar which is so acidic is the same as apple cider vinegar which is not acidic but alkaline, or they under the most enormous amount of stress and maybe have been for some time. Do we have a support system, do we slip in our endeavors, I think I have recently fallen off the cliff on really doing what I need to do, in my estimation, for myself. I am really risking things here by not doing what I feel I should. Kinda scares me some.

    It might be prudent for those of us really interested t keep journals of food in and exercise done, stress in our lives, other health conditions. I know this has been mentioned, I probably mentioned it myself, but I just haven't yet embraced the idea. I'll try again.

    Love ya,

    Claudia

    Yeah, absolutely!
    I endorse your idea of a cancer book discussion group, Claudia! I'd participate!
    And I agree--just hearing that someone had an XYZ diet has no information about what else was going on, to say nothing about the details being quite different than the general overview (theory v practice in other words).
  • debrajo
    debrajo Member Posts: 1,095 Member
    RoseyR said:

    Postscript

    Given your informaton about sulphorane/broccoli, want to add that brussel spouts in my stir fries ALWAYS makes me feel better--perhaps because of their high sulfur content?

    And that I eat small portions of organic meat or goat/sheep cheese just two to three times a week. Usually turkey, never chicken, rarely, beef or pork.

    Mercola's post of the day notes how protective walnuts are against breast and prostate cancers, also slowing the progress of pre-existing tumors in at least one study.

    For all of us interested in the nutritional dimensions of this disease, I think that refining our diets is a constant, subtle, ongoing process--and one we should approach less with stress than fascination.

    And always, enjoyment. (Even when I have a prior misgiving, I ALWAYS enjoy my meals!)

    Rosey

    Diet
    Ladies! I guess I am stupid, but all this is hard to grasp for me and has given me a headache! What you're saying is that depending on our cancer, our stage/grade, our bodies, and our type tumors, we are just going to have to figure out what works JUST FOR OURSELVES? We can't even live on air and water since they are polluded! I'm really confused now! Sorry for the rant!
  • carolenk
    carolenk Member Posts: 907 Member
    bea-mil said:

    Scientific method
    There are so many diets: low carb, paleo, Budwig,s, Gerson’s etc. and many, many theories. Which one to chose? Which one to follow? What is really a proof? ...maybe some laboratory test is? Everyone can write a diet book followed by the line of supplements and energy bars (like paleo authors do) and make a big money on it. Can we just use our own sense and judgment?

    There is no ideal diet for everyone, because everyone is different. Over the last century there have been two fundamental facts in the study of human nutrition that have kept coming up over and over again and they are:
    -Food is most nutritious and healthy in its whole, raw food state.
    -Each person has totally different nutritional requirements for food based on their genetics. These requirements apply to the macronutrients (protein, fats and carbohydrates) and the micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals and trace mineral)

    Here are some examples of the different foods different people ate as witnessed by a 10 year study by Dr Weston Price:
    -The Alaskan Eskimos lived on a highly carnivorous diet of protein, fat and nearly zero carbohydrate and defied the 'then known' laws of nutrition yet enjoyed vigorous health.
    -The Australian Aborigines thrived on sea cow, shell fish, dugong and other types of sea food which was supplemented with some sea plants.
    -The isolated Swiss from the Loetschental Valley thrived on dairy from pasture fed cows and rye bread.
    -The Quechtus Indians of South America lived on a near vegetarian diet of vegetables and fruit but ate small rodents that were available to them and also enjoyed excellent health yet their diet was the polar opposite of the Eskimo.

    I have studied different diets, and I have incorporated into mine some of the rules from many of them, but my number one rule is to be close to the nature and follow my instinct.... so I stick to whole, raw food diet with some exemption (I cook legumes, potatoes etc), eat more veggies than fruits, don’t eat meat (which I’ve always hated even though my blood type is 0), eat some dairy products (organic kefir, cottage cheese and eggs only!!), eat organic fish once or twice a week(no small seafood which is very toxic, as these creature leave at the bottom of the sea were all heavy metals are cumulate), avoid grains, (eat only occasionally whole grain bread), don’t eat processed food, don’t eat sugar (bake my own sweat treats using xylitol), use a lot of anticancer spices.

    I think we should always do what we feel is right for us. However, do so responsibly and consciously considering all aspects. Listen to your body and work with it to tell you how it feels what it needs and how it should be nourished. Listen to your mind and be analytical about any kind of health or nutritional advice you come across, and discern with wisdom. But above all, don’t forget to listen to your heart and soul and take into account what will give you the most inner peace.

    Weston Price
    Since you raised the subject of Dr, Price, I thought I would post the web site where folks could read more about his work:
    www. westonaprice.org

    Dr. Price did not find a healthy vegan group of indigenous people (based on his definition of health based on bone structure & teeth). Since I needed braces, it is obvious to me that my mother's diet was protein deficient while I was in utero...and my mother has type O blood, too. Mom is a carboholic but I'm the one who got cancer, not her. Go figure.
  • RoseyR
    RoseyR Member Posts: 471 Member
    JoAnnDK said:

    tests for those on plant-based diets
    I was poking around online last night and found an article that said that those on plant-based diets need to be monitored to be sure all of their nutritional needs are being met. Of course, I cannot find that article now, but this doctor lists the same tests.

    http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2011/08/25/top-10-blood-tests-for-vegetarians-and-vegans/

    To summarize, these are the tests:

    Complete Blood Count with Differential and Platelets
    Comprehensive Chemistry/Metabolic Panel
    Ferritin
    Folic Acid
    Homocysteine
    Iron, total and IBC
    Lipid Panel
    Methylmalonic Acid, Serum
    Vitamin B12
    Vitamin D3, 25 Hydroxy

    Anyone in CHEMO and RADIATION Needs These Tests!

    Yes vegetarians should so monitor their blood, but so should cancer patients BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER chemo and radiation.

    Levels of D3 and B12 should be taken before surgery and esp before chemo. Levels of ferritin and iron are vital after treatment, especially after any blood transfusions.

    How many of our own treatment centers monitored and kept you informed of our status? How many of them checked our B12 to be sure it was at least 500 before we started chemo to help prevent neuropathy, for example?

    Rosey
  • Rewriter
    Rewriter Member Posts: 493 Member
    Kaleena said:

    Thank you!
    Thank you ladies for the great topic and responses. I am going to look more into the suggestions here.

    Hoping everyone is having a great day today.

    Kathy

    P.S. Finally sunny here in Pennsylvania!

    My diet and recent concerns
    The food I eat changes from time to time. I do believe that my body will often tell me what it needs, and I generally follow certain cravings (I DO know, however, that my body might crave cheese doodles and potato chips without NEEDING them).

    Anyway, this is what I am eating now. I would love some feedback on whether any of the women here have reliable information that any of these foods should be avoided:

    Breakfast: A big bowl of fruit that includes blueberries, strawberries, half of a ripe banana, an orange, and raisins. Occasionally, I add a squeeze of lemon juice.

    Late morning: I eat a bowl of organic oatmeal with the other half of the ripe banana, flaxseeds, a few chopped almonds, a few more raisins, cinnamon, and almond milk.

    Lunch: A large salad with spinach, kale, romaine, shredded red cabbage, cucumbers, carrots, grape tomatoes, and some beans. Most of the ingredients are organic. I usually make a lemon juice and olive oil dressing, sometimes use balsamic vinegar, but today will buy more apple cider vinegar and use that instead. From time to time, I will add some wild tuna (the kind sold at Trader Joe's).

    Snacks: Fresh juice made with tomatoes, kale, spinach, cucumbers; organic carrot sticks with hummus; a handful of almonds; another bowl of fruit.

    Dinner: A quinoa and vegetable stew; chickpea/yam curry; roasted vegetables with beans and spelt; mushrooms/onions/lentils/kasha; a mock chopped liver made with lentils, onions, and walnuts. I do eat out a fair amount and will have whole wheat pasta with vegetables, wild salmon, Mexican beans and guacamole, vegetarian Indian dishes. I do my best, but I will eat corn tortillas and have an occasional Margarita (includes sugar, I know), although I generally stick to a glass or two of red wine.

    Spices: Lots and lots of turmeric and curry, ginger when I think about it. Caramelized onions are the basis for many of my dishes.

    Everyday food: KALE. I eat tons and tons of kale--kale chips, juiced kale, raw kale salads, stewed kale...

    I NEVER eat red meat or sugar (unless it's in my occasional Margarita); will occasionally have chicken (if I'm cooking it, I will look for grain-fed) and fish; include a bit of lowfat cheese and fat-free yogurt in my weekly diet; and do have whole grain bread.

    Any comments are greatly appreciated. I want to eat a very healthy diet, but I live in NYC and am a major foodie! I love to eat and believe that enjoyment of our food goes a long way towards improving our (at least mental) health.

    Love and hugs,

    Jill
  • Tethys41
    Tethys41 Member Posts: 1,382 Member
    Rewriter said:

    My diet and recent concerns
    The food I eat changes from time to time. I do believe that my body will often tell me what it needs, and I generally follow certain cravings (I DO know, however, that my body might crave cheese doodles and potato chips without NEEDING them).

    Anyway, this is what I am eating now. I would love some feedback on whether any of the women here have reliable information that any of these foods should be avoided:

    Breakfast: A big bowl of fruit that includes blueberries, strawberries, half of a ripe banana, an orange, and raisins. Occasionally, I add a squeeze of lemon juice.

    Late morning: I eat a bowl of organic oatmeal with the other half of the ripe banana, flaxseeds, a few chopped almonds, a few more raisins, cinnamon, and almond milk.

    Lunch: A large salad with spinach, kale, romaine, shredded red cabbage, cucumbers, carrots, grape tomatoes, and some beans. Most of the ingredients are organic. I usually make a lemon juice and olive oil dressing, sometimes use balsamic vinegar, but today will buy more apple cider vinegar and use that instead. From time to time, I will add some wild tuna (the kind sold at Trader Joe's).

    Snacks: Fresh juice made with tomatoes, kale, spinach, cucumbers; organic carrot sticks with hummus; a handful of almonds; another bowl of fruit.

    Dinner: A quinoa and vegetable stew; chickpea/yam curry; roasted vegetables with beans and spelt; mushrooms/onions/lentils/kasha; a mock chopped liver made with lentils, onions, and walnuts. I do eat out a fair amount and will have whole wheat pasta with vegetables, wild salmon, Mexican beans and guacamole, vegetarian Indian dishes. I do my best, but I will eat corn tortillas and have an occasional Margarita (includes sugar, I know), although I generally stick to a glass or two of red wine.

    Spices: Lots and lots of turmeric and curry, ginger when I think about it. Caramelized onions are the basis for many of my dishes.

    Everyday food: KALE. I eat tons and tons of kale--kale chips, juiced kale, raw kale salads, stewed kale...

    I NEVER eat red meat or sugar (unless it's in my occasional Margarita); will occasionally have chicken (if I'm cooking it, I will look for grain-fed) and fish; include a bit of lowfat cheese and fat-free yogurt in my weekly diet; and do have whole grain bread.

    Any comments are greatly appreciated. I want to eat a very healthy diet, but I live in NYC and am a major foodie! I love to eat and believe that enjoyment of our food goes a long way towards improving our (at least mental) health.

    Love and hugs,

    Jill

    Diet
    Jill,
    Overall what you're doing looks good. Keeping in mind that I'm a purist, here are the things I notice:

    The banana and raisins are high glyemic. Better to stick to organic, dark skinned berries.
    Keep the carrot content of your juice low. Carrots have sugar and juicing them concentrates it.
    Chickpeas are high in carbs. Carbs end up being sugar when we digest it. One of the rules of thumb that my naturopath has is not eating anything that has more carbs than protein. I make humus using zucchini instead of chickpeas.
    There's a lot of grains in this diet. Grains = carbs. There are those who believe that we should not consume more than 45 grams of carbs per day during most of the year ("Lights Out" T.S. Wiley).

    There's not much protein and fat in this diet. Adding more healthy oils, oilive oil, coconut oil, avacado oil and grapeseed oil would really help your body maitain essential tissues, such as the protective layer of your nervous system. Also, are you supplementing B12? Very essential nutrient. "Autoimmune: The Cause and the Cure."

    If you are going to continue eating so many grains and higher glycemic fruits, have cinnamon or a cinnamon capsule with these meals, as it will help regulate your blood sugar.

    The spelt and whole wheat pasts is of concern. There is research, which I unfortunately can't site, that states there is a link between gluten and cancer. There is a definite link between gluten and autoimmune and to all neurodegenerative conditions, like alzheimer's. And there is cross contamination into other grains, like oats and corn, and buckwheat and barley. When buying your oats for oatmeal, Bob's Red Mill has on that is gluten free.
    If you have time, I urge you to listen to the presentation on this website about the Why of Gluten Free
    http://www.namastehealthcenter.com/resources.htm

    Also, there is a presentation on this website about the Thriving with Cancer Workshop my naturopath held last Fall. Her photo appears next to the link for the presentation. Keep in mind this is the woman who was diagnosed with stage IV ovarian cancer 20 years ago and treated it without surgery or chemo. She is a very dynamic presenter.

    http://www.namastehealthcenter.com/bios.htm

    Hope this helps,
    Kate